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I realize, of course, that the ready availability of guns in America, their valorization, and the celebration of them, isn't the sole cause of extreme gun violence.

But it's also true you can't have mass gun violence without massive numbers of guns, and Americans own something like 400 million of them, including over 20 million AR-15-type assault rifles.

Guns do kill people, and they need to be regulated (as they already are) and treated with the utmost respect.

Guns, love them or loathe them, make mass killing easier, especially the AR-15-type weapons, which are not suitable for either hunting or self-defense, unless you fancy yourself a SEAL Team member or a gangster.

Solutions to mass gun violence must include tighter restrictions on gun ownership, consistent with the second amendment. Gun ownership should be restricted to mature adults who take responsibility for knowing how to operate them and keep them secured. Too many gun owners are irresponsible and negligent, occasionally tragically so as children find loaded guns and shoot siblings, other kids, or themselves.

We must stop valorizing guns and gun violence. (Just look at all the Cable TV shows and Hollywood action flicks that treat guns as so many "sexy" toys, with bullets being sprayed anywhere and everywhere.) In short, we need to grow up.

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Oct 21·edited Oct 21Liked by Bill Astore

Bill, it's true there are too many weapons in the hands of people, with the 'black rifle' (AR-15 platform) being almost a talisman for the Second Amendment - and glorified in entertainment and in YouTube in the recounting of the innumerable veterans (and posers) from the various wars in the Mideast.

Personally, I think civilians - with proper training - should be restricted to revolvers, pump or semi auto shotguns, and bolt or lever action rifles; those provide all the firepower needed for hunting, personal protection, and recreational shooting. An AR-15 is designed for urban combat - not deer hunting.

As a country, "in violence we trust" could be the motto on back of the dollar bill. But we glorify it only because most have never seen it.

My now deceased friend named Pete was an SF soldier who did three tours in Vietnam; much of it in close combat on long range patrols. He was, and had been, a hunter for much of his life. But he got to the point on a hunt he'd just go sit on a stump in the forest and shoot at nothing. He never explained why, but I could sense he was tired of killing and what it cost him.

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Oct 21·edited Oct 21

Personally, I think a lot of our problems stem from people in power who say, personally, I don't think you should be able to ...... Personally I think people should be allowed to lead their lives as they see fit, as long as they don't steal stuff or do violence on other people. Unfortunately people like me are in the minority. Most people seem to want to control the lives of other people, most of whom they don't even know.

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I see your use of anaphora - personally you have a right to your opinion.

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Thanks. I had to look up the word "anaphora".

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I found it a couple of weeks ago and was waiting for a chance to use it. :-)

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I used to do that at work. Write my progress reports around some obscure word. Good fun.

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Oct 21·edited Oct 21

TomR, for your interest all handguns with a barrel shorter than 14-inces are banned in New Zealand. You can buy pistols, but only with a Gun Glub Registration and training. And only for use on Gun Club ranges.

The reasoning here - handguns are easily hidden and the most used in gun homicides. Not too many commit suicide, shoot the girl friends mother, and accidents with young kids, with a deer hunting rifle, eh?

You can buy any weapon you want in the big box "Gun Stores" as in the US, BUT with strict Registration and Licensing. There are AR-15's sold and used for deer hunting. Ridiculous.

I'm not an expert on this subject, but my research in debating this in the past comes up with ~ paraphrasing ~100 gun homicides per 1,000 capita in the US compared to 2 in New Zealand.

So we must be doing something that works eh?

Sadly, just 10-years ago the NZ police were not armed. Not so now! Sign of the times.

Debating Americans on 2A is like self-flagellation. I gave up long ago!

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founding

This Nation needed to grow up a long, Long time ago. And about more than just guns and violence on the tube, the big screen, and the game board.

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Government weapons kill more people than private weapons do. Which is the greater threat to the individual?

There is also the political dimension: "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."

Is the state the only actor entitled to hold the power of deadly force?

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founding

Excellent point and questions, Begemot. See the comment i just posted.

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An AR 15 is going to be pretty pathetic against climate change. Won't slow up a hurricane in the least. Priorities anyone ? How many people are going to die from climate in the next 10 years?

How much of mass shootings are the results of video games and Hollywood, TV and the complete lack of education on gun usage? The military is reaping the benefit of pre trained operators for the "reapers", both physical and psychological (score points get another life).

The drone operator is the real "drone".

A vehicle is a far more deadly weapon than a gun. Maybe we should ban them? Consider comparing vehicle death & injury to gun violence. I can already hear the "But but but but........."

Has anyone considered mandatory education for weapons handling in high school? Like driver Ed? Probably make too much sense.

AR 15s are stupid. But so are the people who buy them.

What is making teens decide it would be fun to go shoot up a school?

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founding

Except for the fact that the military seems to be having a hard time finding all those "pre-trained operators," good points and good Question, Toma.

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Oct 21·edited Oct 21

Lizzo, campaigning with Kamala Harris, promises that if Harris is elected the whole country will be "like Detroit". Detroit has the second highest violent crime rate among cities in the US (St. Louis is first). So apparently some politicians like violence. I'm not sure why. I certainly don't. Of course these are the same politicians who like us to fight forever wars. https://www.zerohedge.com/political/democrats-cheer-lizzo-says-whole-country-be-detroit-if-kamala-wins

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From everything I’ve read on the subject, a huge proportion of gun violence from mass murder to suicide to school shooters is the consequence of taking SSRI meds. Please read Dr. Peter Breggin on this, as well as RFK, Jr. and the sources they rely on.

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Oct 21·edited Oct 21

Please Mary, as an SSRI user, don't get me started on this meme.

It's a tired old favourite trotted out by gun nuts, and the NRA.

"A huge proportion" ~ get outa here!

More than on alcohol, wacky tobaccy and cocaine! Don't make me laugh my dear!

And of course, we should ban medicines - but not guns.

Guns don't kill people - Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors kill people.

SSRIs treat millions of unfortunate folk with depression, anxiety, panic attacks and social phobia.

A danger to society ~ lets get rid of them.

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founding

RFK, Jr and Dr Peter Breggin are gun nuts aligned with the NRA? Interesting.

And nobody is talking about "getting rid of" SSRIs.

They are talking about doing a better job of anticipating and dealing with problems that are known to arise when SSRIs are used by some people.

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"Fear & Loathing on the Campaign Trail" 2024 style w/ apologies to the Late Great Hunter S. Thompson. Hunter used to carry a 357 Magnum like the one I had a License to Carry that was stolen & recovered incredibly! Unfortunately Hunter killed himself suicide by gun @ 67 in his Aspen, Co. home while talking to his wife on the phone. A sad commentary...Its too bad too he would've had a wonderful time with the current batch of characters running for the White House. Trump he would have had a Field Day on him! Its just too bad he took the Hemingway out!!! Guns make that all too easy.

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We have a rather huge swath of the populace that is not healthy mentally or physically. To that we couple the nations long addition to violence as the answer--indoctrinated as it is down to our "entertainment."

King said it well. "As I have walked among the desperate, rejected, and angry young men, I have told them that Molotov cocktails and rifles would not solve their problems. I have tried to offer them my deepest compassion while maintaining my conviction that social change comes most meaningfully through non-violent action; for they ask and write me, "So what about Vietnam?" They ask if our nation wasn't using massive doses of violence to solve its problems to bring about the changes it wanted. Their questions hit home, and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without first having spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today: my own government."

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founding

Earlier, Dennis Merwood posed the question: “Do you agree Alex that the way 2A is being interpreted now is not what the Founding Fathers intended?”

As one answer to that question, on 22 Jul 24, the Tenth Amendment Center’s Michael Boldin offered EIGHT ESSENTIAL PRINCIPLES BEHIND THE 2ND AMENDMENT. Here are the main points...:

1. The Right To Keep And Bear Arms is a Natural Right. In other words, you have the right to defend yourself simply because you exist.

2. The Second Amendment isn’t your “gun permit.” You don’t need government permission to exercise a natural right. In effect, you are your own gun permit.

3. Every Federal gun law is unconstitutional. The Second Amendment was intended to clarify this point, explicitly stating that THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS “SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.”

4. Even though the Second Amendment was only intended to restrict the actions of the Federal government, State and Local restrictions on firearms also violate your Individual, Natural rights.

5. The Founders cited four primary reasons for the Second Amendment:

~ It helps promote the individual, natural right of self-defense.

~ It guarantees the states a militia power of their own to balance the military power of the federal government. – in other words, it prevents the need for large, permanent standing armies.

~ It was adopted to support the people defending against foreign invasion.

~ As Defense against domestic tyrants.

6. To fulfill the purposes of the Second Amendment, the people need to have the weapons necessary to get the job done. In other words, it’s not just about “muskets.” To render a standing army unnecessary, the people have to have military arms. If the Colonists had not possessed military-style weapons, they would have lost America’s War of 1776.

7. The Founders viewed disarming the people as tyranny. To disarm the people was the easiest, simplest, cheapest, quickest, most effective, and thus Very Best way to enslave them.

8. We will never protect our Right to Self-Defense and to Keep And Bear Arms by getting on our knees and begging the government to stop violating it. As Thomas Jefferson put it, “A free people claim their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as a gift of their chief magistrate.”

Putting these eight points together, it all boils down to this: THE ONLY WAY TO PROTECT YOUR RIGHTS IS TO EXERCISE THEM WHETHER THE GOVERNMENT WANTS YOU TO, OR NOT.

Full article at https://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2024/07/22/eight-essential-principles-behind-the-2nd-amendment/ ,

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founding

Earlier, Begemot pointed out that “Government weapons kill more people than private weapons do.” And then asked: “Which is the greater threat to the individual?”

For those who doubt Begemot’s assertion, see the following:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ and

https://www.statista.com/statistics/811504/mass-shooting-victims-in-the-united-states-by-fatalities-and-injuries/ .

He then asked: “Is the state the only actor entitled to hold the power of deadly force?”

This is how Murray Rothbard put it in his ANATOMY OF THE STATE:

“Briefly, the State is that organization in society which attempts to maintain a monopoly of the use of force and violence in a given territorial area; in particular, it is the only organization in society that obtains its revenue not by voluntary contribution or payment for services rendered but by coercion.

“While other individuals or institutions obtain their income by production of goods and services and by the peaceful and voluntary sale of these goods and services to others, the State obtains its revenue by the use of compulsion; that is, by the use and the threat of the jailhouse and the bayonet. Having used force and violence to obtain its revenue, the State generally goes on to regulate and dictate the other actions of its individual subjects.” [pp 11-12]

NOTE: Rothbard’s epigraph to ANATOMY reads: “The greatest danger to the State is independent intellectual criticism.”

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Hatred of government is tied to gun love. Being able to say one has a gun is yet another way to say "nobody is going to tell me what to do!" a defiant statement which surely should be the American motto, replacing the all-encompassing and welcoming "liberty and justice for all" that has been forgotten.

Can anyone think of a single good that has come from the endless addition of firearms in America? The protection of guns is bizarre, right down to accessories such as the bump stock and now the switch for the Glock. There is an obsession with guns in movies, where we get to see them not only frequently used, but also assembled and disassembled in loving detail. The gun love must be pulling in audiences.

Did I tell the story of my elderly Aunt Martha? When I was about 8 years old I was being baby sat at a neighbor's home with another child. The neighbors were out for the evening and had invited us to come to their place because they had a TV and we didn't. Their kid was the other child. Aunt Martha was the sitter. We kids eagerly sat down to watch the TV show Gunsmoke, the opening featuring Matt Dillon in a shootout with a bad guy in Dodge City. The two draw guns and Dillon wins.

At this Aunt Martha rose from her chair and said, "I can't stand this violence" and left the room.

This happened in 1958. Silly cowboy shootouts on TV were common, never any blood shown. Inner city shootings were only a memory of the Al Capone days. Mass shootings were unknown. A school shooting was beyond imagining. Fences in the neighborhood were few and decorative, front doors were unlocked. We kids ran freely in the neighborhood without parents worried about where we were of what we were doing.

Things have changed. Trump wears his MAGA hat, but it isn't clear what he wants America to get back to, though expelling immigrants is a hint as is hatred of government, the very vehicle he pledges to use for his own purposes. I can't imagine it means getting rid of, or even regulating or controlling guns in any way. It is a fantasy that may get him elected.

And now, get ready for war with Iran to protect ethnic cleansing by Israel. MAGA...if only it meant escaping the "special relationship" with Israel where guns are not just loved, but eagerly used to kill Palestinians, a tradition since 1948.

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Expelling ILLEGAL immigrants.

Hatred of a Government RUN AMUCK.

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The NRA caste has no impact on mass shooting, therefore Harris/Walz position is entirely defensible.

Mass shooting are fringe persons who in many cases should be under wraps, but that process would be rough on the bill of rights beyond second amendment.

That said both Harris and Walz have more experience with McD French fries than guns

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All gun owners are not fringe person mass shooters ~ until they are!

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Of course a tiny % of us go off the deep end, very, very few.

Recent mass shooters represent the non or illegal gun tribes.

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California, which has about the most stringent gun control laws in the country, also has the most mass shootings. https://www.statista.com/statistics/811541/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-state/ Time to stop talking about gun violence and start talking about gang violence.

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author

Alex, California also has the highest population at 39 million. More people with more guns = more gun violence.

Stricter gun control laws don't generate more mass shootings. Generally speaking, the reverse is true.

You are correct, though, that gang violence must be targeted and curtailed. It's not just about guns.

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Oct 21·edited Oct 21

California actually has a relatively low percentage of people with guns (40th in the country), presumably reflecting the relatively severe gun control laws. Strict gun control laws haven't stopped California from having 3 of the top 15 US cities with high violent crime RATES (Stockton, Oakland, San Bernadino). About gang violence, I don't know of anyone on the Democrat side who wants to do a thing about gang violence, preferring to make more laws that adversely affect law-abiding citizens.

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Oct 21·edited Oct 21

Strict gun control laws HAVE STOPPED New Zealand and Australia from having high gun violence, as well as kept high violent crime RATES down.

Strict gun control laws DO NOT ADVERSELY affect law-abiding citizens. Thats just bovine excrement!

These tired old memes are just nonsense!

But lets face it, 2A is NEVER going to be amended.

As you all know, the Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures. None of the 27-amendments to the Constitution have been proposed by constitutional convention. Is that right?

The goal posts are impossibly high.

And even it is amended what about the 400-million guns out there that are grandfathered in? The Sherifs go door to door........"Got any guns in there?" LOL

(Joke: "Nope, they are all my pickup with my drugs!)

And the prolific speech by Charlton Heston – From My Cold Dead Hands!

Muricin's are stuck with 2A. That horse has escaped the barn forever!

But it's worse than that isn't it? Stuck with Scalia's (?) interpretation of 2A - which is not what the founding fathers intended. The well-regulated militia- and all that dross!

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Well we do have a 2nd Amendment, which other counties don't have. It's part of the bill of rights, also which other countries don't have. The NZ government can basically do what they want to, and the record for the last 40 years shows increasingly draconian measures, which I doubt have affected the already low crime rate.

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Oct 22·edited Oct 22

Do you agree Alex that the way 2A is being interpreted now is not what the Founding Fathers intended?

Yes, and it's very discouraging to see more and more gun violence in NZ, and now the police armed. Not the NZ this 76-year-old grew up in.

I have a jpeg of a young NZ lady cop wearing her bullet proof vest holding her AR-15 at the ready!

Questions: was "Trumpy the McDonalds fry cook" staged you reckon? And do you think it gained him more voters. Last question ~ is the election close? Or is going to be a Reagan/Mondale repeat? Wadda yuh think?

Hope you are well. What State do you live in?

I live in the North Island. Palmerston North. Google maps it

We are 20-hrs ahead of Seattle. 68F here at 1:04 in the afternoon.

Springtime - remember our seasons are reversed.

PS. I just got banned from James Howard Kunstler's site, "Clusterfuck Nation". For saying bad things about Murica and dumb Yanks! Oh dear! Women posters calling me an "ignorant cunt" is OK. (As bad as using the "N" word in NZ.) But using the term "Septic Tank" for Muricans get's you banned. Go figure

EDIT: The NZ government CANNOT basically do what they want to do. NZ has a truly representative gubmint with no bought-and-paid-for politicians. They will be out on their arse in a second if they go against their voters.

EG: Jacinda Ardern, lefty politician who in 2017 became leader of the New Zealand Labour Party (left wing) and then, at age 37, NZ's youngest Prime Minister ~ did not survive taking drastic measures into the gubmints hands during Covid. Even thought it was successful. She was lambasted and was forced to resign.

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Oct 22·edited Oct 22

I've read that a lot of new gun control regulations were accomplished by fiat by PM Arden. Fiat. Our President (theoretically) couldn't do the same thing because of our 2nd Amendment, although I'm guessing the Dems will try. BTW, it looks like NZ will be getting nuclear-powered subs from the US sometime soon (phase 2 of AUKUS). So is that what New Zealanders are clamoring for? Unfortunately you may have as little influence on your government as I have on mine. BTW, again, it's probably naive to think that money can't buy political power in NZ. Money can buy political power everywhere.

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