Mr. Astore- Something you said in the dialog above, about how military dissidents to forever wars need to operate as "the IMF from the classic TV show, 'Mission Impossible'," really struck a chord with me. I was a big fan of that show during its first network run. Apart from the trashing of the Jim Phelps character, and the transformation of the "franchise" into an action-packed star vehicle for Tom Cruise, the biggest thing that, in my mind, differentiates the TV series from the movies, is the typical caper/sting nature of the small-screen missions. So often, the IMF had to trick the bad-guy of the week into stepping outside of a fortified compound or bunker to permit capture by the good-guys, or so mislead and confuse the bad-guys that they shot themselves in the feet or handed over their most precious secrets or possessions to IMF teammates, who were falsely posing as friends or allies.
With the above in mind -- and you don't need to answer -- what kinds of capers and stings does your IMF run to put the "bad guys" out of power and/or into jail, and to get the truth out to the people so they can participate in determining what is being done in their name, and by whom? Your writing is powerful, of course, and I commend you for your efforts. But the IMF always won most satisfyingly on TV, when it somehow got the bad-guys themselves to admit to outrageous things on an open mic or hidden camera, and we viewers got to see them realize that they had been had, as they fully grasped the wrathful consequences that were in store for them after the end of the episode.
I loved those old IMF tv shows, James. Your mission, Jim, should you decide to accept it ...
With respect to getting the "bad guys" to reveal themselves, in some cases they already have. Consider the Pentagon Papers for Vietnam, the Afghan War papers, and, for Iraq, the Downing Street Memo and Wikileaks revelations like the collateral murder video.
The face of empire is very ugly, and we're probably still seeing it only in partial profile and very deep shadow.
Thank you Danny, Bill and all the commenters, this is a topic of utmost importance. This brings me back to something I remember from the morning of "9/11" - Dubbya, sitting in that classroom, and being given the news of the planes crashing into the Two Towers - I look at his face and see someone desperately trying to hold back the biggest grin of his life.
What i saw, Kathleen, was somebody who was glad he was in a classroom listening to a kid reading a story about a pet goat, and that his Vice President ~ Cheney ~ was in charge of the whole immediate reaction and response show.
I can't believe what you just said the 9-11 attacks killed 2,977 people and 343 of my Brother Firefighters and for you to suggest someone, anyone such as the President holding back a ---- I can't even type it goes beyond the pale..!
For the moment, let's leave aside the validity of 9/11 as a government conspiracy.
Again, let's not say whether it's true or false. What I'm concerned with is what it reveals about attitudes toward government. And what it reveals is very disturbing. Many people believe their government orchestrated an attack that killed over 3000 Americans and which included strikes against the WTC, the Pentagon, and (as planned) the U.S. Capitol building. This reflects a profound, almost bottomless, contempt for "democracy" as it exists in America.
And when so many people have no trust in their government, and indeed actively suspect it of killing thousands of citizens and even our "heroes" in uniform, how can such a government thrive? Or even survive?
With everything that's going on in the World today and my being strictly non- political to begin with I believe a site that anyone should be on should have unlimited scope and as such those with limited scope I just i.m.o. need to avoid...! There is no doubt sensitive content on all sides of these Events, and enough blame to go around for all..! Just rem. lies differ from bullsh*t in that the liar must track the "truth" in order to conceal it... "Fake News" is nothing new!
But is it any surprise that “so many people have no trust in their government”?
Especially if those People remembered back in 2001 and still remember today the Lies that their government perpetrated and perpetuated about:
~ 1. The Kuwait Incubator Babies that Saddam’s marauding troops threw on the floor so they could take those incubators back to Baghdad that sealed the deal for launching OPERATION DESERT STORM, the “liberation” of Kuwait, and the murder of close to one million Iraqi Children, Women, and Old Folks thru the post-DESERT STORM Sanctions? How’d Madeline Albright put it? “It was worth it.”
~ 2. That “incident” in the Tonkin Gulf back in August, 1964, that paved the way for what the Vietnamese People term “The American War,” and what it did to the Peoples, Lands, Countries, and Nations of Indochina?
Yes, that's a "real" question. When the government stops serving the people and becomes largely an arm of corporate power that enriches the 1%, that government should not thrive nor should it survive.
Another "real" question: Is a restoration of representative government possible without revolution? If not, how bloody and costly will that revolution prove, assuming one is ever launched? Or will America simply "fall" without serious efforts to reform and restore itself? So far, it appears the "fall" scenario is winning.
That’s not just “Another real question,” Bill. That is but one of the most important Real Questions that Americans need to start asking themselves, their families and loved ones, friends and neighbors, cohorts, colleagues, and compeers. And to then start coming up with Answers to them.
More specifically, the Question is: Is a restoration of a constitution-based, representative government that is a Republic possible WITHOUT a revolution?
My answer to that Real Question is NO. What is required is a change in the whole system of government, governance, and the methods by which governors are determined. And that is a pretty good definition of a “revolution,” wouldn’t You agree?
If it happens, it will be the FIRST American Revolution [1776 was a Secession, not a Revolution].
And if it happens, the Revolution must NOT be bloody. At least not because of anything that the Revolutionaries do. Because if it is, it will fail.
Those Other Real Questions are:
~ 1. WHO is going to make that bloodless Revolution happen, and HOW are they going to do that?
~ 2. But first: WHAT is to replace America’s current system of government, governance, and governor selection? And, again, WHO is going to determine and decide that, and HOW are they going to do That?
And i think You are completely correct in assessing America’s state as that of Falling, and that by extension, that The American Experiment launched in 1776 is now in Failing mode.
Let me ask You a bottom-line, bullet-hits-the-bone question, Fireman1110:
Do You think that the American People and the World have been told the whole, real, complete, and actual Truth about 9/11 as told by this government [ie, the 9/11 Commission, FEMA, and NIST] and as sold by its media?
The TRUTH About WHAT actually happened that day; about HOW and WHY it happened; about WHO made it happen; and ultimately, about Who LET it happen?
Do You believe that some Raghead living in a cave in Afghanistan pulled that whole thing together and off by himself? Just for starters: That he was able to make NORAD stand down?
And do You believe that ~ for the first time in history ~ a structural steel building was brought down because of fire; which we are told and sold, happened THREE times on 9/11 with the collapses of WTC Towers 1, 2, and 7?
And more significant than Bush seeming to "hold back a ----" was and remains the simple fact that the Secret Service did not get Bush out of that classroom where he was listening to some kid reading a story about a pet goat, and under protective cover.
After all: America was "under attack!!!" wasn't it? Did the Secret Service think that whoever launched that attack didn't know where the President of the United States was?
Can You answer these questions? Or are they "beyond the pale," as well?
And if it is definitively proven it was the "gubmint" Jeff, what does that gain anyone? What's the point of tormenting ourselves with this question forever?
Who is going to go to jail? W? Dick Cheney? And if Cheney is going to have to go to jail, isn't it fair Henry Kissinger does likewise?
And what's to be done differently in light of this in the future? Has anything ever been done about the gubmint lying us into any wars?
Wasn’t that the moniker of a movement birthed after Billy Bob of Arkansas got caught getting a blowjob in the Oval Office from a Woman young enough to be his Daughter [interestingly enough named Monica], and then caught lying about it?
Yeah, America: “Move on… .”
And while You’re at it, bend over, spread Your cheeks and open Your mouth wide so You can get jammed down Your throat and shoved up Your ass another LIE.
What’ll it be this time? Another Pandemic? Another “Too Big To Let Fail” financial and economic “¢risi$”? Or best of all, another 9/11?
Cheney doesn’t need to go to jail. Cheney ~ along with his cohorts Bush the Lesser, Rice, and the whole rest of those scumbags who called themselves the “Project For A New American Century” ~ needs to be tried and convicted for, at a minimum, Murder, Assault, and the Destruction of Private and Public Property. [Unfortunately, Rumsfeld and Powell, among others, are already dead, so they can avoid this.]
But first, they all need to be sent to Guantanamo for a little first-hand experience with and exposure to a little of that “Enhanced Interrogation” they all championed as a way to win their so-called “Global” so-called “War On” so-called “Terrorism.”
And then strung up on gallows down there in DC right in front of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.
And “what’s is to be done differently in the future”?
For the American Peoples to pull their individual and collective heads out of their collective and individual asses about what their government is, what it does, how it does it, and the price that they ~ the American Peoples and the rest of the Planet ~ will inevitably continue to pay in Blood and Treasure if this Bullshit continues unabated.
That’s what is to be done differently.
Does that answer Your question?
ps: And Yes, Henry the K also needs to be enhancely interrogated, tried, convicted, and strung up for his contribution to America's "Greatness."
Bill: Caitlin Johnstone provides the perfect accompaniment for Your and Danny Sjursen’s very thought-provoking and enlightening conversation… :
30 SIGNS YOU MIGHT BE AN EMPIRE SIMP
There are many bootlicking simps for the US empire. It’s not entirely their fault; the empire has the most sophisticated propaganda machine ever devised and most westerners have been marinating in its influence their entire lives. But it does happen, and it’s good to bring awareness to it.
Here then are 30 signs you might be an empire simp:
~ 1. You get triggered whenever anyone highlights the well-documented western provocations that paved the way to the war in Ukraine.
~ 2. You think Putin invaded Ukraine solely because he is evil and hates freedom and the US is pouring weapons into the nation because it loves Ukrainians and wants to protect their freedom and democracy.
~ 3. You’re more interested in Trump’s mugshot than the western-backed atrocities in Yemen or starvation sanctions in Syria.
~ 4. You can listen to Tony Blinken talk without wanting to throw trash at his head.
~ 5. You understand that the last time there was a credible foreign military threat near the US border the US responded so aggressively that it almost ended the world, yet you demand that Russia and China accept US military threats on their borders.
~ 6. You think the US is filling Australia with war machinery because it loves Australians and wants to protect them from China.
~ 7. You believe the world’s most destructive military force is encircling its #1 geopolitical rival with war machinery as a defensive measure.
~ 8. You live in the most propagandized population on earth and make jokes about North Korean propaganda.
~ 9. You live in the most propagandized population on earth and spend your time fretting about Russian propaganda.
~ 10. You think the title of most murderous and tyrannical regime on earth belongs to any government besides Washington.
~ 11. You live under the most murderous and tyrannical power structure on earth and yet spend your time shrieking about tyranny in Asian countries.
~ 12. You want to see Vladimir Putin tried for war crimes before George W Bush.
~ 13. You believe western interventionism has ever had anything to do with spreading freedom and democracy or protecting humanitarian interests.
~ 14. You find protests in places like Iran, Venezuela or Cuba much more interesting than protests in places like France, Haiti or Chile.
~ 15. You unironically call NATO a “defensive alliance”.
~ 16. You rend your garments about China preparing to seize control of Taiwan by military force without ever acknowledging that the US empire is preparing to do the exact same thing.
~ 17. You’ve ever believed for even one second that the US government gives a fuck about Muslims in China.
~ 18. You oppose guns except when they’re being used to kill foreigners overseas.
~ 19. You claim you oppose the misdeeds of all governments equally but find yourself spending most of your time yelling at people who criticize US foreign policy online.
~ 20. You’ve ever accused anyone who criticizes US foreign policy of secretly working for Russia or China.
~ 21. You’ve ever accused someone who criticizes Israel of being an anti-semite.
~ 22. You think being anti-war means putting a Ukraine flag in your Twitter bio.
~ 23. You think “the troops” have ever fought for your freedom at any time since you’ve been alive.
~ 24. You think the invasion of Iraq had anything to do with liberating the Iraqi people.
~ 25. You think the destruction of Libya had anything to do with protecting Libyans.
~ 26. You think the west arming Al Qaeda in Syria had anything to do with advancing the interests of Syrians.
~ 27. You think US escalations against Russia and China have anything to do with “national security”.
~ 28. You think the Department of Defense has anything to do with defense.
~ 29. You think it’s okay for the US to keep waging wars, destroying nations, starving civilian populations with economic sanctions, instigating proxy wars, arming neo-Nazis and violent jihadists, staging coups and persecuting journalists, because if it doesn’t do those things the world might be taken over by evil tyrants.
Thank you! That was a really good discussion, and I was glad to see Sjursen's name once again on an oped. I haven't seen his essays for a while and I wondered why - I still do. Even if he doesn't write as often as you do (and your blog is REALLY great and REALLY needed) I hope he will write some more; and I seldom see anything by Bacevich either, so I hope there will be more.
One thing I realized as I read this piece is that for those of us who have not been members of the military there is a lot of important detail we don't understand. It would be helpful if we understood more how things work. Your description of how a surge works was just that - for once I understood what that really meant, and that it was not a movement forward, but a way to stay in place more easily. You mention that at one point you wondered if the military was "an imperial police force", and I think it is. So I wonder if you could tell us how special forces in Africa work, because I have no idea why they are there or what they are doing, and I bet most non military people don't know. Another major question for me is what our private military contractors are doing? Initially I thought they were just providing meals and such so soldiers could go out and kill, but it seems than private contractors also kill and they get paid a lot more than our soldiers to do it. That is sort of a WTF question for me. Just what are they doing and why do we have them? Do you know the answer? I think too many of us simple citizens have no idea what is going on which is why they aren't up in arms protesting.
You both talk about the disillusionment you began to feel and Danny's description of his tour in Afghanistan brought it home. I owned an independent bookstore for 30 years and oddly, I had contact with a lot of Vietnam vets, both enlisted and officers, many of them marines, who bought or ordered books from me. What I noted was that EVERY one of them carried emotional scars from that war in some form of PTSD or other! Not one of them was the person they started out to be as a young man. I only know one young Iraq/Afghan vet. He was stationed like Danny at an outpost and was the radio man so he didn't have to kill people, but he still came back with major PTSD which after 7 years is finally settling down. I wonder how many others are like that? We need more people to write and report about the insanity of our murderous foreign policy.
Incidentally, there is a very good interview with Jeffrey Sachs today on You Tube discussing the utter idiocy of the Biden foreign policy and the Ukraine war.
Ranney, with respect to AFRICOM and special forces, I'd recommend you consult the writings of Nick Turse. He's spent years researching and writing on these subjects.
Ask yourself why the U.S. is interested in Africa and the answer is usually resources (oil, uranium, lithium, etc.). Weapons sales are part of it, i.e. profits. Influence. Control. Denying opportunities to rivals such as China. These motives are usually dressed up or obscured with rhetoric about nation-building, fostering democracy, and anti-terror ops.
Private military contractors: they're used by the government to obscure accountability. It's easier to keep their ops secret from the American people. And when contractors die, their deaths are easier to ignore than uniformed troop deaths.
You can FOIA (freedom of information act) the government and maybe get some info, but you can't FOIA private companies.
Profit, power, resources, economic dominance, corporate agendas: whether you call it imperialism or Neo-colonialism or hegemony, it's really about control and dominance and denying rivals the same.
Thanks Bill, I didn't expect an immediate reply, I just thought it would be helpful if we knew what was really going on in today's military. Most citizens are not happy about the outsized proportion of our tax dollars that go to the Pentagon, especially when we know that a great deal of it is wasted, or spent on activity we don't know about - like special forces in African countries, and private contractors who seem to make an awful lot of money doing stuff that, when on rare occasions we learn a small amount about it, we're not sure we like it or want our children doing it. I imagine it might take more than one essay to tell us how these things work, but citizen voters do need more information than they are getting.
I very well realize that my perspective is that of an older person, one who's paid close attention to current events for decades, who's been around the block. A person who's been anti-war and anti-military for 50 years. To me, the military was always the epitome of The Establishment, never to be trusted. I learned the lessons of Vietnam as a teenager, as the body bags came home by the thousands. Anyone who lived through that could never in good conscience support involvement in foreign wars of choice, imo.
Of course, Major Djursen didn't live that experience. Even so, however, he mentions that as a senior at West Point, he already thought something was, "fishy" with what was going on overseas. He says that he read Andrew Bacevich's work, as well, which confirmed some of the thoughts he was having. I know how difficult it is to veer aside once a course is set, but still.... Those of us who were paying attention knew long before the spring of 2003 that the reasoning for invading Iraq was total BS. How did Major Djursen square his qualms and suspicions, along with the "facts on the ground," so to speak, with going ahead and shipping out to Iraq? If he was deeply conflicted, why go through with it? Peer pressure? Easier to carry on than to quit? I think the fact that he did go to Iraq, only to see his friends killed and civilians murdered for no good reason, should serve as a cautionary tale.
First of all, Denise, permit me to share my perspective as an equally “older person,” having turned 77 last month.
There are lots and lots of people who went thru Vietnam [and/or any of America’s other Wars since] with their boots on the ground ~ as opposed to being a teenager watching flag-draped coffins [as opposed to body bags] arriving on tv ~ who, “in good conscience,” have supported and still support America’s involvement in all those “foreign wars of choice.”
Seeing War up close and personal is no guarantee that the “participant-observer” will become anti-War.
Second of all, You need to understand that then-Cadet Sjursen’s sensing that something was “fishy” about America’s Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq ~ and then his reading of Colonel Bacevich’s book ~ did not lead him at that time to condemn those Wars and to resign from West Point.
What it did do was plant a SEED that took time and, most importantly, real world exposure to the realities of those Wars for both combatants like him and the people he led and commanded, and for the non-combatant civilians in those war zones desperately attempting to avoid becoming what Americans euphemistically call “collateral damage.”
Consequently, at the time when then-Lieutenant Sjursen first shipped out to Iraq, he was not “deeply conflicted” about The Forever War. It was a War that America was in, and he was a highly militarily-trained and academically-educated professional soldier and leader of other professional [or at least “All Volunteer” as opposed to being drafted] soldiers.
And that SEED that was planted at West Point was placed in an ideal situation for nurturing, developing, and ultimately transforming itself into the flower of a very clear understanding of what this ~ and every other ~ War that America has been involved in since 9/11 was ~ and still is ~ actually, really all about.
When he was given orders to go to Iraq, he had little choice in the matter not because of “peer pressure” or because it was “easier to carry on than quit.” He had little choice because that SEED demanded that he go for the purpose of either confirming or condemning his judgement about that War, and whether or not his original suspicions about something being “fishy” about it were accurate.
And that is exactly what he did, and that is exactly Why he is among the clearest, most forceful and articulate Veterans Voices Against War that America has today, along with Andrew Bacevich and Bill Astore, among others. He was far, far away from being “deeply conflicted.”
Having said all that, here’s a question for You: How is seeing friends [and subordinates and superiors] killed and civilians murdered for no good reason a “cautionary tale”?
In any event, i can very personally relate to Major Sjursen’s journey because in late 1965, i quit college and enlisted in the Army for the express purpose of going to Vietnam and doing my part in helping to stop that “domino” from “falling.” It was 57 years ago this month that i began what ended up being two years in Vietnam. And when I got there, I KNEW that what America was doing there was Good, Right, and Righteous.
And i was in-country for just over a month ~ including two and a half weeks in the field as a Private First Class Infantryman with the 101st Airborne Division ~ when i wrote a letter to my Father explaining to him exactly How and Why America was going to lose this War.
And it was about six and a half months later that i began to realize, recognize, and accept as undeniable Truth that what America was doing to the Peoples, Land, Country, and Nation of Vietnam was not only NOT “Good, Right, and Righteous,” but that it was ~ in undeniable fact ~ Bad, Wrong, and above all, EVIL.
Just like every War America has been involved in since, starting with Grenada, Panama, and Kuwait/Iraq I.
Extremely well said, Jeff. You speak with authority and wisdom, the wisdom being especially hard earned from the war you waged in the false name of democracy.
Thank You, Bill. i'm not sure how much "wisdom" i gained from that experience, but it definitely planted a few SEEDS of my own that i have been dealing with and attempting to make a flower of ever since. And You, Major Sjursen, and Colonel Bacevich have been very effective guides on the journey. And i Thank You [and them] for that, as well. Have a Great weekend. ~ jeff
To answer your question about a cautionary tale, what I meant was that if I had my doubts about something but went ahead anyway, then saw the carnage that ensued, which horrified me, I'd listen to my gut/intuition/inner voice next time. OTOH, if I were a soldier, saw what I saw, and simply deemed it necessary for meeting X objective, then all good. I knew a Vietnam vet like that.
Hi Denise, i'm glad that provided You with a bit of a different perspective on this whole matter.
The thing to always bear in mind is that the first and primary "objective X" of any soldier in combat is to stay alive and survive so as to be able to 1], accomplish The Mission and, more importantly, 2], to be able to go home in one, whole piece [at least physically] after the tour of duty in that combat zone is over.
Jeff and Bill, I'm interested in your thoughts on the kids who fled to Canada to avoid the Vietnam goatrope. Did they do the right thing you reckon? Do they have a clear conscience in their twilight years facing their maker?
BTW, my best high school friend's father in New Zealand was a conscientious objector in WW2. And not on religious grounds. He was an atheist. He was imprisoned for the entirety of the war, and spent a year in solidity confinement for "bad" behaviour.
The plan was for the incarcerated men was to do productive work. Making rope out of flax (hemp). But history shows that scheme was an utter flop.
His wife was so badly ostracized, fired from job and could not be employed, and finally she had to go into hiding incognito in another town.
I attended a conference in NZ put on by a group of the NZRSA (Returned Serviceman Association) who had the goal of honouring these men in some way. There was a large attendance, but I never heard of anything coming of their efforts.
Did objectors in the US get imprisoned? Have there been books published about conscience objectors in the US you could point us to? Thanks
Hi Dennis. re: Your question “Did Vietnam War objectors get imprisoned?”:
“It is now known that, during the Vietnam era, approximately 570,000 young men were classified as draft offenders, and approximately 210,000 were formally accused of draft violations; however, only 8,750 were convicted and only 3,250 were jailed.”
re: “Have there been books published of objectors in the US?”
Do a Google Hunt and Gather on “books about draft resistance during vietnam war,” and You will find a whole bunch of books that were.
And as regards my thoughts on “the kids who fled to Canada to avoid the goatrope” and whether they did “the right thing”:
Yes, those “kids” absolutely did “the right thing.”
First of all: A Draft to force people into military service ~ particularly during a time of an undeclared, illegal, and immoral War ~ is nothing but another form Involuntary Servitude, aka “Slavery.” It is a “wrapped in the Flag” [and wipe the butt with the Constitution] sort of Slavery, but Slavery, nonetheless. Sort of like forcing a Woman to carry to full term a fetus that she does not want to give birth to.
Second of all: That War ~ just like the current “Forever War” ~ was illegal and immoral by any and all definitions of those terms. To refuse to participate in it by fleeing to Canada was the most MORAL thing that anybody ~ who knew that that War was illegal and immoral and understood exactly Why it was illegal and immoral ~ could do.
Considering that, as I've said before in this forum, I had five good friends who served in 'Nam, who all died in one way or another from its after-effects, and considering that I sat suicide watch for one of them, your perspective wasn't all that unfamiliar to me. Two of them didn't come home physically whole, and not one of them was mentally healthy for the rest of his [relatively short] life.
That is the one glaring shortcoming of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial located on the National Mall in Washington, DC, Denise: It does not list those Viet Vets who died long after their tours of duty from complications of the physical and/or psychological wounds they sustained while in-country.
Examples are those dealing with and dying from the long-term effects of exposure to Agent Orange, and those who commit suicide because they are no longer able to deal with the PTDS sustained from their time in The Nam.
Many, many more Viet Vets have died those ways that are not included in the official tally of Vietnam War Dead remembered and honored by The Wall.
For details, see the “Adding A Name To The Wall” page of the website of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, Inc at https://www.vvmf.org/About-The-Wall/ .
"There is one thing in the world more wicked than the desire to command, and that is the will to obey." - William Kingdon Clifford - (1845-1879) English mathematician, philosopher
“The corporations that profit from permanent war need us to be afraid. Fear stops us from objecting to government spending on a bloated military. Fear means we will not ask unpleasant questions of those in power. Fear permits the government to operate in secret." Chris Hedges
"American people are very much like the children of a Mafia boss who do not know what their father does for a living, and don't want to know, but then wonder why someone just threw a firebomb through the living room window." - William Blum - The Anti-Empire Report
"Pity the poor, wretched, timid soul, too faint hearted to resist his oppressors. He sings the songs of the damned, 'I cannot resist, I have too much to lose, they might take my property or confiscate my earnings, what would my family do, how would they survive? - W. Vaughn Ellsworth
“The evils of government are directly proportional to the tolerance of the people.” Frank Kent
"The trust of the innocent is the liar's most useful tool." Stephen King
"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." - Frédéric Bastiat, The Law
Heh. What we really, actually, and truly Need, Bill, is the mug shot they take when he gets checked into a Federal Penitentiary.
Along with Biden and his Prodigal Son.
Along with everybody else in Swampland still alive who has been an active player in what has happened in and/or to America and this Planet over the last at least 30 years, starting with the Clintons and their Mob.
If Trump "gets checked into a Federal Penitentiary" Jeff, you may be seeing the end of America much sooner than even you have been predicting!
The riots across America will make the 1965 Watts Riots in LA look like a Sunday School picnic. As W would say "Bring it on!"
Tucker Carlson's interviews, first with Colonel Douglas Macgregor*, and then with Donald Trump, were viewed by 200-million+ of Trump supporters seeking an end to war and eager for some truth. People saw the real Trump. Niggas for Trump went viral. Trump is mobbed by thousands at every appearance and killing em at the Polls. Everybody can see these indictments are frivolous bullshit. And folks now know for sure that the 2020 election was rigged by the Clintonites. And the DOJ is corrupt. Its undeniable. This Georgia trial will prove that in Georgia. That corrupt DA is stepping on her dick!
*On November 11, 2020, Macgregor was appointed by President Trump to serve as the senior advisor to the new Acting Secretary of Defense Christopher Miller. As part of a sweeping change in senior defence staffing. Macgregor was an advocate of U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan, and other Trump policies opposed by the defense establishment. His appointment was welcomed by Senator Rand Paul. Predicably, he only held the post until Trump left office in January 2021. They had to get rid of him. He was making too much sense and threatening to upset the gravy train.
In December 2020, President Trump appointed Macgregor to a three-year term on the advisory board of the United States Military Academy at West Point, his alma mater. Because of absurd allegations of xenophobia made against him, the appointment was opposed by West Point's Black alumni organization and board member Tammy Duckworth, among others. His appointment was terminated by President Joe Biden in September 2021. What did you expect? Doug Macgregor is not a warmonger.
By the grace of God, Trump will appoint Macgregor as his Secretary of Defense when he is inevitably reelected as the 47th POTUS. The sick Georgia mug shot has assured him of victory. The vast majority of American people were revolted! How can you be mugshot as a criminal when you have not been convicted of a crime in a Court of Law? Proving to the whole World that the US is a Banana Republic. Innocent until proven guilty in the US is a joke! All Americans see themselves in Trumps shoes being fucked by the system. Especially fucked by the "progressive" left.
Spoiling your ballet with NOTA will be wasting your vote and just part of the charade. Standing on the sideline yelling instructions. Maybe Jeff, instead of always condescendingly giving us your advice, maybe you should take heed of you own advice and -"pull your head out of your individual asse about what your government is, what it does"... and work on improving things it does for you - instead of constantly shitting on your country in your every post. It gets old my friend.
It's not "another forever war," Bill. It's just two old farts trying to keep their brain cells functional by engaging in some periodic spirited chit chatter.
Heh. i was wondering how long it would take to get a rise out of BV’s favorite Trumpatista. How Ya doin, Dennis? Howz things down there in Kiwi Land? Still think that when War with China comes to AUKUSA, that You guys will be unaffected?
And Thank You for what folks in the close tactical artillery, air, and naval gunfire support folks call a “Target Rich Environment.”
For example:
So [quote] “200+ million Trump supporters” watched Tucker’s interview with Trump, eh? You sure about that? i watched it just to see what Your Boy had to say. Think i’m the only person on the Planet who did the same thing? And i’m sure that “Niggas For Trump” resonates with You quite well.
And if “folks now know for sure that the 2020 election was rigged,” what do those same folks now know about the 2016 election? Any thoughts on that? And when was the DOJ NOT corrupt? Anytime in Your or my lifetime?
And which “VAST MAJORITY of American people” [EMPHASIS added] were and are “revolted” by Trump getting mug shot is that, Dennis? Got any polls on that?
And in case You didn’t know or understand it: In this country, EVERYBODY who is indicted by a Grand Jury and served a Sopena/ Summons has to: 1] post bail, and 2] get mug shot and fingerprinted. Otherwise, they get arrested on other charges in addition to the original one.
And that is all BEFORE any trial that may ultimately happen. And THAT is why Trump was joined by his 18 co-defendants there in that Georgia Sheriff’s Office.
Trump has not “been fucked” by “the system” At this point, he ~ like his 18 sidekicks ~ has merely been declared officially and legally [regardless of what politicians and other propagandists on either side of the brouhaha may say], and in every other way “innocent until; proven guilty.” That’s what he has that multi-million-dollar legal team for, and why he has it, isn’t it?
And finally, You suggest that i “pull [my] head out of [my] individual asse [sic] about what your government is, what it does... and work on improving things it does for you instead of constantly shitting on it in your every post.”
It’s a shame that You regard pointing out how fucked up this system of government, governance, and the choosing of its governors is as “shitting on it.” But that’s Your problem, and definitely not mine.
You concluded:
TRUMP/RAMASWAMY 2024… . Last time You made a preference/prediction was TRUMP/RFK Jr 2024. What changed? The debate?
PUTIN FOR MAN OF THE YEAR… . For doing exactly what? Invading Ukraine?
CORNELL WEST - ppppfffft!... . Who is Cornell West and what does he have to do with this conversation?
Have a Great day, Dennis Unless, that is, You mean “Great” like Trump, Trumpatismo, and all You Trumpatistas mean it when they talk about making “America GREAT Again.”
Go rattle your dags with someone else my man. People like you should be out in the street, shouting and hollering with a cardboard sign and selling pencils from a cup. I'm not buying one of your pencils.
A Google Hunt n Gather for “the opposite of trump derangement syndrome” came up with two gems…:
~ 1. Trump superfan Bill Mitchell said that the best way for someone to show their love for Jesus is to help Donald Trump get reelected in 2020.
“Donald Trump is gonna have the results for us, he’s got the ammunition for us,” Mitchell said. “But … we have to put feet to our faith, and go out there and work.”
Mitchell went on to remind viewers that “God is watching us.”
“[God’s] saying, ‘You know what guys? I could do this with a wave of my hand, but I’d rather you do it, because I created you to do stuff, not just to be little puppets down there, running around … I want you to actually do stuff and show me you love me by doing my will.'”
According to Mitchell, “Donald Trump is God’s man.”
~ 2, “Some have called me ‘sycophant’ for unrelenting support of the president.
“I am not.
“I believe Trump was sent by God to lead America through this most perilous moment in our history, blessed with a vision and second-sight beyond his innate strategic brilliance.
Mr. Astore- Something you said in the dialog above, about how military dissidents to forever wars need to operate as "the IMF from the classic TV show, 'Mission Impossible'," really struck a chord with me. I was a big fan of that show during its first network run. Apart from the trashing of the Jim Phelps character, and the transformation of the "franchise" into an action-packed star vehicle for Tom Cruise, the biggest thing that, in my mind, differentiates the TV series from the movies, is the typical caper/sting nature of the small-screen missions. So often, the IMF had to trick the bad-guy of the week into stepping outside of a fortified compound or bunker to permit capture by the good-guys, or so mislead and confuse the bad-guys that they shot themselves in the feet or handed over their most precious secrets or possessions to IMF teammates, who were falsely posing as friends or allies.
With the above in mind -- and you don't need to answer -- what kinds of capers and stings does your IMF run to put the "bad guys" out of power and/or into jail, and to get the truth out to the people so they can participate in determining what is being done in their name, and by whom? Your writing is powerful, of course, and I commend you for your efforts. But the IMF always won most satisfyingly on TV, when it somehow got the bad-guys themselves to admit to outrageous things on an open mic or hidden camera, and we viewers got to see them realize that they had been had, as they fully grasped the wrathful consequences that were in store for them after the end of the episode.
I loved those old IMF tv shows, James. Your mission, Jim, should you decide to accept it ...
With respect to getting the "bad guys" to reveal themselves, in some cases they already have. Consider the Pentagon Papers for Vietnam, the Afghan War papers, and, for Iraq, the Downing Street Memo and Wikileaks revelations like the collateral murder video.
The face of empire is very ugly, and we're probably still seeing it only in partial profile and very deep shadow.
Thank you Danny, Bill and all the commenters, this is a topic of utmost importance. This brings me back to something I remember from the morning of "9/11" - Dubbya, sitting in that classroom, and being given the news of the planes crashing into the Two Towers - I look at his face and see someone desperately trying to hold back the biggest grin of his life.
What i saw, Kathleen, was somebody who was glad he was in a classroom listening to a kid reading a story about a pet goat, and that his Vice President ~ Cheney ~ was in charge of the whole immediate reaction and response show.
I can't believe what you just said the 9-11 attacks killed 2,977 people and 343 of my Brother Firefighters and for you to suggest someone, anyone such as the President holding back a ---- I can't even type it goes beyond the pale..!
For the moment, let's leave aside the validity of 9/11 as a government conspiracy.
Again, let's not say whether it's true or false. What I'm concerned with is what it reveals about attitudes toward government. And what it reveals is very disturbing. Many people believe their government orchestrated an attack that killed over 3000 Americans and which included strikes against the WTC, the Pentagon, and (as planned) the U.S. Capitol building. This reflects a profound, almost bottomless, contempt for "democracy" as it exists in America.
And when so many people have no trust in their government, and indeed actively suspect it of killing thousands of citizens and even our "heroes" in uniform, how can such a government thrive? Or even survive?
With everything that's going on in the World today and my being strictly non- political to begin with I believe a site that anyone should be on should have unlimited scope and as such those with limited scope I just i.m.o. need to avoid...! There is no doubt sensitive content on all sides of these Events, and enough blame to go around for all..! Just rem. lies differ from bullsh*t in that the liar must track the "truth" in order to conceal it... "Fake News" is nothing new!
Excellent points and questions, Bill.
But is it any surprise that “so many people have no trust in their government”?
Especially if those People remembered back in 2001 and still remember today the Lies that their government perpetrated and perpetuated about:
~ 1. The Kuwait Incubator Babies that Saddam’s marauding troops threw on the floor so they could take those incubators back to Baghdad that sealed the deal for launching OPERATION DESERT STORM, the “liberation” of Kuwait, and the murder of close to one million Iraqi Children, Women, and Old Folks thru the post-DESERT STORM Sanctions? How’d Madeline Albright put it? “It was worth it.”
[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony ]
~ 2. That “incident” in the Tonkin Gulf back in August, 1964, that paved the way for what the Vietnamese People term “The American War,” and what it did to the Peoples, Lands, Countries, and Nations of Indochina?
[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident ]
And how many other Lies has this government perpetrated and been caught at over these past 22 years?
The real question is not Whether that government can “thrive or even survive.”
The real question is: SHOULD it?
Yes, that's a "real" question. When the government stops serving the people and becomes largely an arm of corporate power that enriches the 1%, that government should not thrive nor should it survive.
Another "real" question: Is a restoration of representative government possible without revolution? If not, how bloody and costly will that revolution prove, assuming one is ever launched? Or will America simply "fall" without serious efforts to reform and restore itself? So far, it appears the "fall" scenario is winning.
That’s not just “Another real question,” Bill. That is but one of the most important Real Questions that Americans need to start asking themselves, their families and loved ones, friends and neighbors, cohorts, colleagues, and compeers. And to then start coming up with Answers to them.
More specifically, the Question is: Is a restoration of a constitution-based, representative government that is a Republic possible WITHOUT a revolution?
My answer to that Real Question is NO. What is required is a change in the whole system of government, governance, and the methods by which governors are determined. And that is a pretty good definition of a “revolution,” wouldn’t You agree?
If it happens, it will be the FIRST American Revolution [1776 was a Secession, not a Revolution].
And if it happens, the Revolution must NOT be bloody. At least not because of anything that the Revolutionaries do. Because if it is, it will fail.
Those Other Real Questions are:
~ 1. WHO is going to make that bloodless Revolution happen, and HOW are they going to do that?
~ 2. But first: WHAT is to replace America’s current system of government, governance, and governor selection? And, again, WHO is going to determine and decide that, and HOW are they going to do That?
And i think You are completely correct in assessing America’s state as that of Falling, and that by extension, that The American Experiment launched in 1776 is now in Failing mode.
Let me ask You a bottom-line, bullet-hits-the-bone question, Fireman1110:
Do You think that the American People and the World have been told the whole, real, complete, and actual Truth about 9/11 as told by this government [ie, the 9/11 Commission, FEMA, and NIST] and as sold by its media?
The TRUTH About WHAT actually happened that day; about HOW and WHY it happened; about WHO made it happen; and ultimately, about Who LET it happen?
Do You believe that some Raghead living in a cave in Afghanistan pulled that whole thing together and off by himself? Just for starters: That he was able to make NORAD stand down?
And do You believe that ~ for the first time in history ~ a structural steel building was brought down because of fire; which we are told and sold, happened THREE times on 9/11 with the collapses of WTC Towers 1, 2, and 7?
And more significant than Bush seeming to "hold back a ----" was and remains the simple fact that the Secret Service did not get Bush out of that classroom where he was listening to some kid reading a story about a pet goat, and under protective cover.
After all: America was "under attack!!!" wasn't it? Did the Secret Service think that whoever launched that attack didn't know where the President of the United States was?
Can You answer these questions? Or are they "beyond the pale," as well?
And if it is definitively proven it was the "gubmint" Jeff, what does that gain anyone? What's the point of tormenting ourselves with this question forever?
Who is going to go to jail? W? Dick Cheney? And if Cheney is going to have to go to jail, isn't it fair Henry Kissinger does likewise?
And what's to be done differently in light of this in the future? Has anything ever been done about the gubmint lying us into any wars?
Move on - nothing to be seen here eh.
Heh. Yeah, America: “Move on… .”
Wasn’t that the moniker of a movement birthed after Billy Bob of Arkansas got caught getting a blowjob in the Oval Office from a Woman young enough to be his Daughter [interestingly enough named Monica], and then caught lying about it?
Yeah, America: “Move on… .”
And while You’re at it, bend over, spread Your cheeks and open Your mouth wide so You can get jammed down Your throat and shoved up Your ass another LIE.
What’ll it be this time? Another Pandemic? Another “Too Big To Let Fail” financial and economic “¢risi$”? Or best of all, another 9/11?
Cheney doesn’t need to go to jail. Cheney ~ along with his cohorts Bush the Lesser, Rice, and the whole rest of those scumbags who called themselves the “Project For A New American Century” ~ needs to be tried and convicted for, at a minimum, Murder, Assault, and the Destruction of Private and Public Property. [Unfortunately, Rumsfeld and Powell, among others, are already dead, so they can avoid this.]
But first, they all need to be sent to Guantanamo for a little first-hand experience with and exposure to a little of that “Enhanced Interrogation” they all championed as a way to win their so-called “Global” so-called “War On” so-called “Terrorism.”
And then strung up on gallows down there in DC right in front of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.
And “what’s is to be done differently in the future”?
For the American Peoples to pull their individual and collective heads out of their collective and individual asses about what their government is, what it does, how it does it, and the price that they ~ the American Peoples and the rest of the Planet ~ will inevitably continue to pay in Blood and Treasure if this Bullshit continues unabated.
That’s what is to be done differently.
Does that answer Your question?
ps: And Yes, Henry the K also needs to be enhancely interrogated, tried, convicted, and strung up for his contribution to America's "Greatness."
For details, see "DOES AN OLD H.A.K. REQUIRE REHABILITATION? Henry A. Kissinger, Still a War Criminal" by Rebecca Gordon at https://tomdispatch.com/does-an-old-h-a-k-require-rehabilitation/ .
Bill: Caitlin Johnstone provides the perfect accompaniment for Your and Danny Sjursen’s very thought-provoking and enlightening conversation… :
30 SIGNS YOU MIGHT BE AN EMPIRE SIMP
There are many bootlicking simps for the US empire. It’s not entirely their fault; the empire has the most sophisticated propaganda machine ever devised and most westerners have been marinating in its influence their entire lives. But it does happen, and it’s good to bring awareness to it.
Here then are 30 signs you might be an empire simp:
~ 1. You get triggered whenever anyone highlights the well-documented western provocations that paved the way to the war in Ukraine.
~ 2. You think Putin invaded Ukraine solely because he is evil and hates freedom and the US is pouring weapons into the nation because it loves Ukrainians and wants to protect their freedom and democracy.
~ 3. You’re more interested in Trump’s mugshot than the western-backed atrocities in Yemen or starvation sanctions in Syria.
~ 4. You can listen to Tony Blinken talk without wanting to throw trash at his head.
~ 5. You understand that the last time there was a credible foreign military threat near the US border the US responded so aggressively that it almost ended the world, yet you demand that Russia and China accept US military threats on their borders.
~ 6. You think the US is filling Australia with war machinery because it loves Australians and wants to protect them from China.
~ 7. You believe the world’s most destructive military force is encircling its #1 geopolitical rival with war machinery as a defensive measure.
~ 8. You live in the most propagandized population on earth and make jokes about North Korean propaganda.
~ 9. You live in the most propagandized population on earth and spend your time fretting about Russian propaganda.
~ 10. You think the title of most murderous and tyrannical regime on earth belongs to any government besides Washington.
~ 11. You live under the most murderous and tyrannical power structure on earth and yet spend your time shrieking about tyranny in Asian countries.
~ 12. You want to see Vladimir Putin tried for war crimes before George W Bush.
~ 13. You believe western interventionism has ever had anything to do with spreading freedom and democracy or protecting humanitarian interests.
~ 14. You find protests in places like Iran, Venezuela or Cuba much more interesting than protests in places like France, Haiti or Chile.
~ 15. You unironically call NATO a “defensive alliance”.
~ 16. You rend your garments about China preparing to seize control of Taiwan by military force without ever acknowledging that the US empire is preparing to do the exact same thing.
~ 17. You’ve ever believed for even one second that the US government gives a fuck about Muslims in China.
~ 18. You oppose guns except when they’re being used to kill foreigners overseas.
~ 19. You claim you oppose the misdeeds of all governments equally but find yourself spending most of your time yelling at people who criticize US foreign policy online.
~ 20. You’ve ever accused anyone who criticizes US foreign policy of secretly working for Russia or China.
~ 21. You’ve ever accused someone who criticizes Israel of being an anti-semite.
~ 22. You think being anti-war means putting a Ukraine flag in your Twitter bio.
~ 23. You think “the troops” have ever fought for your freedom at any time since you’ve been alive.
~ 24. You think the invasion of Iraq had anything to do with liberating the Iraqi people.
~ 25. You think the destruction of Libya had anything to do with protecting Libyans.
~ 26. You think the west arming Al Qaeda in Syria had anything to do with advancing the interests of Syrians.
~ 27. You think US escalations against Russia and China have anything to do with “national security”.
~ 28. You think the Department of Defense has anything to do with defense.
~ 29. You think it’s okay for the US to keep waging wars, destroying nations, starving civilian populations with economic sanctions, instigating proxy wars, arming neo-Nazis and violent jihadists, staging coups and persecuting journalists, because if it doesn’t do those things the world might be taken over by evil tyrants.
~ 30. You were bothered by any item on this list.
Source: https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/30-signs-you-might-be-an-empire-simp
Thank you! That was a really good discussion, and I was glad to see Sjursen's name once again on an oped. I haven't seen his essays for a while and I wondered why - I still do. Even if he doesn't write as often as you do (and your blog is REALLY great and REALLY needed) I hope he will write some more; and I seldom see anything by Bacevich either, so I hope there will be more.
One thing I realized as I read this piece is that for those of us who have not been members of the military there is a lot of important detail we don't understand. It would be helpful if we understood more how things work. Your description of how a surge works was just that - for once I understood what that really meant, and that it was not a movement forward, but a way to stay in place more easily. You mention that at one point you wondered if the military was "an imperial police force", and I think it is. So I wonder if you could tell us how special forces in Africa work, because I have no idea why they are there or what they are doing, and I bet most non military people don't know. Another major question for me is what our private military contractors are doing? Initially I thought they were just providing meals and such so soldiers could go out and kill, but it seems than private contractors also kill and they get paid a lot more than our soldiers to do it. That is sort of a WTF question for me. Just what are they doing and why do we have them? Do you know the answer? I think too many of us simple citizens have no idea what is going on which is why they aren't up in arms protesting.
You both talk about the disillusionment you began to feel and Danny's description of his tour in Afghanistan brought it home. I owned an independent bookstore for 30 years and oddly, I had contact with a lot of Vietnam vets, both enlisted and officers, many of them marines, who bought or ordered books from me. What I noted was that EVERY one of them carried emotional scars from that war in some form of PTSD or other! Not one of them was the person they started out to be as a young man. I only know one young Iraq/Afghan vet. He was stationed like Danny at an outpost and was the radio man so he didn't have to kill people, but he still came back with major PTSD which after 7 years is finally settling down. I wonder how many others are like that? We need more people to write and report about the insanity of our murderous foreign policy.
Incidentally, there is a very good interview with Jeffrey Sachs today on You Tube discussing the utter idiocy of the Biden foreign policy and the Ukraine war.
Ranney, with respect to AFRICOM and special forces, I'd recommend you consult the writings of Nick Turse. He's spent years researching and writing on these subjects.
I've compared America's special forces to the Catholic Jesuits; here's the link: https://bracingviews.com/2015/01/20/special-forces-americas-jesuits/
That article includes a link to Nick Turse.
Ask yourself why the U.S. is interested in Africa and the answer is usually resources (oil, uranium, lithium, etc.). Weapons sales are part of it, i.e. profits. Influence. Control. Denying opportunities to rivals such as China. These motives are usually dressed up or obscured with rhetoric about nation-building, fostering democracy, and anti-terror ops.
Private military contractors: they're used by the government to obscure accountability. It's easier to keep their ops secret from the American people. And when contractors die, their deaths are easier to ignore than uniformed troop deaths.
You can FOIA (freedom of information act) the government and maybe get some info, but you can't FOIA private companies.
Profit, power, resources, economic dominance, corporate agendas: whether you call it imperialism or Neo-colonialism or hegemony, it's really about control and dominance and denying rivals the same.
If Nick Turse's writings don't shock you.....well, I dunno what will!
Ranney, I will follow up; your questions are not easily addressed quickly.
Thanks Bill, I didn't expect an immediate reply, I just thought it would be helpful if we knew what was really going on in today's military. Most citizens are not happy about the outsized proportion of our tax dollars that go to the Pentagon, especially when we know that a great deal of it is wasted, or spent on activity we don't know about - like special forces in African countries, and private contractors who seem to make an awful lot of money doing stuff that, when on rare occasions we learn a small amount about it, we're not sure we like it or want our children doing it. I imagine it might take more than one essay to tell us how these things work, but citizen voters do need more information than they are getting.
And that's exactly what makes them Good questions.
I very well realize that my perspective is that of an older person, one who's paid close attention to current events for decades, who's been around the block. A person who's been anti-war and anti-military for 50 years. To me, the military was always the epitome of The Establishment, never to be trusted. I learned the lessons of Vietnam as a teenager, as the body bags came home by the thousands. Anyone who lived through that could never in good conscience support involvement in foreign wars of choice, imo.
Of course, Major Djursen didn't live that experience. Even so, however, he mentions that as a senior at West Point, he already thought something was, "fishy" with what was going on overseas. He says that he read Andrew Bacevich's work, as well, which confirmed some of the thoughts he was having. I know how difficult it is to veer aside once a course is set, but still.... Those of us who were paying attention knew long before the spring of 2003 that the reasoning for invading Iraq was total BS. How did Major Djursen square his qualms and suspicions, along with the "facts on the ground," so to speak, with going ahead and shipping out to Iraq? If he was deeply conflicted, why go through with it? Peer pressure? Easier to carry on than to quit? I think the fact that he did go to Iraq, only to see his friends killed and civilians murdered for no good reason, should serve as a cautionary tale.
First of all, Denise, permit me to share my perspective as an equally “older person,” having turned 77 last month.
There are lots and lots of people who went thru Vietnam [and/or any of America’s other Wars since] with their boots on the ground ~ as opposed to being a teenager watching flag-draped coffins [as opposed to body bags] arriving on tv ~ who, “in good conscience,” have supported and still support America’s involvement in all those “foreign wars of choice.”
Seeing War up close and personal is no guarantee that the “participant-observer” will become anti-War.
Second of all, You need to understand that then-Cadet Sjursen’s sensing that something was “fishy” about America’s Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq ~ and then his reading of Colonel Bacevich’s book ~ did not lead him at that time to condemn those Wars and to resign from West Point.
What it did do was plant a SEED that took time and, most importantly, real world exposure to the realities of those Wars for both combatants like him and the people he led and commanded, and for the non-combatant civilians in those war zones desperately attempting to avoid becoming what Americans euphemistically call “collateral damage.”
Consequently, at the time when then-Lieutenant Sjursen first shipped out to Iraq, he was not “deeply conflicted” about The Forever War. It was a War that America was in, and he was a highly militarily-trained and academically-educated professional soldier and leader of other professional [or at least “All Volunteer” as opposed to being drafted] soldiers.
And that SEED that was planted at West Point was placed in an ideal situation for nurturing, developing, and ultimately transforming itself into the flower of a very clear understanding of what this ~ and every other ~ War that America has been involved in since 9/11 was ~ and still is ~ actually, really all about.
When he was given orders to go to Iraq, he had little choice in the matter not because of “peer pressure” or because it was “easier to carry on than quit.” He had little choice because that SEED demanded that he go for the purpose of either confirming or condemning his judgement about that War, and whether or not his original suspicions about something being “fishy” about it were accurate.
And that is exactly what he did, and that is exactly Why he is among the clearest, most forceful and articulate Veterans Voices Against War that America has today, along with Andrew Bacevich and Bill Astore, among others. He was far, far away from being “deeply conflicted.”
Having said all that, here’s a question for You: How is seeing friends [and subordinates and superiors] killed and civilians murdered for no good reason a “cautionary tale”?
In any event, i can very personally relate to Major Sjursen’s journey because in late 1965, i quit college and enlisted in the Army for the express purpose of going to Vietnam and doing my part in helping to stop that “domino” from “falling.” It was 57 years ago this month that i began what ended up being two years in Vietnam. And when I got there, I KNEW that what America was doing there was Good, Right, and Righteous.
And i was in-country for just over a month ~ including two and a half weeks in the field as a Private First Class Infantryman with the 101st Airborne Division ~ when i wrote a letter to my Father explaining to him exactly How and Why America was going to lose this War.
And it was about six and a half months later that i began to realize, recognize, and accept as undeniable Truth that what America was doing to the Peoples, Land, Country, and Nation of Vietnam was not only NOT “Good, Right, and Righteous,” but that it was ~ in undeniable fact ~ Bad, Wrong, and above all, EVIL.
Just like every War America has been involved in since, starting with Grenada, Panama, and Kuwait/Iraq I.
Extremely well said, Jeff. You speak with authority and wisdom, the wisdom being especially hard earned from the war you waged in the false name of democracy.
Thank You, Bill. i'm not sure how much "wisdom" i gained from that experience, but it definitely planted a few SEEDS of my own that i have been dealing with and attempting to make a flower of ever since. And You, Major Sjursen, and Colonel Bacevich have been very effective guides on the journey. And i Thank You [and them] for that, as well. Have a Great weekend. ~ jeff
I appreciate your opinion and stand schooled, jg.
To answer your question about a cautionary tale, what I meant was that if I had my doubts about something but went ahead anyway, then saw the carnage that ensued, which horrified me, I'd listen to my gut/intuition/inner voice next time. OTOH, if I were a soldier, saw what I saw, and simply deemed it necessary for meeting X objective, then all good. I knew a Vietnam vet like that.
Hi Denise, i'm glad that provided You with a bit of a different perspective on this whole matter.
The thing to always bear in mind is that the first and primary "objective X" of any soldier in combat is to stay alive and survive so as to be able to 1], accomplish The Mission and, more importantly, 2], to be able to go home in one, whole piece [at least physically] after the tour of duty in that combat zone is over.
Jeff and Bill, I'm interested in your thoughts on the kids who fled to Canada to avoid the Vietnam goatrope. Did they do the right thing you reckon? Do they have a clear conscience in their twilight years facing their maker?
BTW, my best high school friend's father in New Zealand was a conscientious objector in WW2. And not on religious grounds. He was an atheist. He was imprisoned for the entirety of the war, and spent a year in solidity confinement for "bad" behaviour.
The plan was for the incarcerated men was to do productive work. Making rope out of flax (hemp). But history shows that scheme was an utter flop.
His wife was so badly ostracized, fired from job and could not be employed, and finally she had to go into hiding incognito in another town.
I attended a conference in NZ put on by a group of the NZRSA (Returned Serviceman Association) who had the goal of honouring these men in some way. There was a large attendance, but I never heard of anything coming of their efforts.
Did objectors in the US get imprisoned? Have there been books published about conscience objectors in the US you could point us to? Thanks
Hi Dennis. re: Your question “Did Vietnam War objectors get imprisoned?”:
“It is now known that, during the Vietnam era, approximately 570,000 young men were classified as draft offenders, and approximately 210,000 were formally accused of draft violations; however, only 8,750 were convicted and only 3,250 were jailed.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_evasion_in_the_Vietnam_War .
re: “Have there been books published of objectors in the US?”
Do a Google Hunt and Gather on “books about draft resistance during vietnam war,” and You will find a whole bunch of books that were.
And as regards my thoughts on “the kids who fled to Canada to avoid the goatrope” and whether they did “the right thing”:
Yes, those “kids” absolutely did “the right thing.”
First of all: A Draft to force people into military service ~ particularly during a time of an undeclared, illegal, and immoral War ~ is nothing but another form Involuntary Servitude, aka “Slavery.” It is a “wrapped in the Flag” [and wipe the butt with the Constitution] sort of Slavery, but Slavery, nonetheless. Sort of like forcing a Woman to carry to full term a fetus that she does not want to give birth to.
Second of all: That War ~ just like the current “Forever War” ~ was illegal and immoral by any and all definitions of those terms. To refuse to participate in it by fleeing to Canada was the most MORAL thing that anybody ~ who knew that that War was illegal and immoral and understood exactly Why it was illegal and immoral ~ could do.
Considering that, as I've said before in this forum, I had five good friends who served in 'Nam, who all died in one way or another from its after-effects, and considering that I sat suicide watch for one of them, your perspective wasn't all that unfamiliar to me. Two of them didn't come home physically whole, and not one of them was mentally healthy for the rest of his [relatively short] life.
That is the one glaring shortcoming of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial located on the National Mall in Washington, DC, Denise: It does not list those Viet Vets who died long after their tours of duty from complications of the physical and/or psychological wounds they sustained while in-country.
Examples are those dealing with and dying from the long-term effects of exposure to Agent Orange, and those who commit suicide because they are no longer able to deal with the PTDS sustained from their time in The Nam.
Many, many more Viet Vets have died those ways that are not included in the official tally of Vietnam War Dead remembered and honored by The Wall.
For details, see the “Adding A Name To The Wall” page of the website of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, Inc at https://www.vvmf.org/About-The-Wall/ .
I've been to the wall and mourned for my friends who weren't listed. They were indeed forgotten, hidden casualties.
"There is one thing in the world more wicked than the desire to command, and that is the will to obey." - William Kingdon Clifford - (1845-1879) English mathematician, philosopher
“The corporations that profit from permanent war need us to be afraid. Fear stops us from objecting to government spending on a bloated military. Fear means we will not ask unpleasant questions of those in power. Fear permits the government to operate in secret." Chris Hedges
"American people are very much like the children of a Mafia boss who do not know what their father does for a living, and don't want to know, but then wonder why someone just threw a firebomb through the living room window." - William Blum - The Anti-Empire Report
"Pity the poor, wretched, timid soul, too faint hearted to resist his oppressors. He sings the songs of the damned, 'I cannot resist, I have too much to lose, they might take my property or confiscate my earnings, what would my family do, how would they survive? - W. Vaughn Ellsworth
“The evils of government are directly proportional to the tolerance of the people.” Frank Kent
"The trust of the innocent is the liar's most useful tool." Stephen King
"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." - Frédéric Bastiat, The Law
Source: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/
i’m surprised that nobody here at BV has commented on THE MUG SHOT HEARD AROUND THE WORLD: https://www.bobbleheadhall.com/donald-trump-mug-shot-bobblehead-unveiled/ .
Doesn’t he look so…, So…, SO… Donaldesque? SO Trumpy? SO Corporal Bonespursish?
Needless to say, his Legal Fee and Election Campaign fund drives have done quite well for themselves and him: https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/trump-2024-campaign-rides-the-viral-wave-of-his-mug-shot-with-bold-merch-lineup .
Just what we need: more mug shots of The Donald.
Heh. What we really, actually, and truly Need, Bill, is the mug shot they take when he gets checked into a Federal Penitentiary.
Along with Biden and his Prodigal Son.
Along with everybody else in Swampland still alive who has been an active player in what has happened in and/or to America and this Planet over the last at least 30 years, starting with the Clintons and their Mob.
If Trump "gets checked into a Federal Penitentiary" Jeff, you may be seeing the end of America much sooner than even you have been predicting!
The riots across America will make the 1965 Watts Riots in LA look like a Sunday School picnic. As W would say "Bring it on!"
Tucker Carlson's interviews, first with Colonel Douglas Macgregor*, and then with Donald Trump, were viewed by 200-million+ of Trump supporters seeking an end to war and eager for some truth. People saw the real Trump. Niggas for Trump went viral. Trump is mobbed by thousands at every appearance and killing em at the Polls. Everybody can see these indictments are frivolous bullshit. And folks now know for sure that the 2020 election was rigged by the Clintonites. And the DOJ is corrupt. Its undeniable. This Georgia trial will prove that in Georgia. That corrupt DA is stepping on her dick!
*On November 11, 2020, Macgregor was appointed by President Trump to serve as the senior advisor to the new Acting Secretary of Defense Christopher Miller. As part of a sweeping change in senior defence staffing. Macgregor was an advocate of U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan, and other Trump policies opposed by the defense establishment. His appointment was welcomed by Senator Rand Paul. Predicably, he only held the post until Trump left office in January 2021. They had to get rid of him. He was making too much sense and threatening to upset the gravy train.
In December 2020, President Trump appointed Macgregor to a three-year term on the advisory board of the United States Military Academy at West Point, his alma mater. Because of absurd allegations of xenophobia made against him, the appointment was opposed by West Point's Black alumni organization and board member Tammy Duckworth, among others. His appointment was terminated by President Joe Biden in September 2021. What did you expect? Doug Macgregor is not a warmonger.
By the grace of God, Trump will appoint Macgregor as his Secretary of Defense when he is inevitably reelected as the 47th POTUS. The sick Georgia mug shot has assured him of victory. The vast majority of American people were revolted! How can you be mugshot as a criminal when you have not been convicted of a crime in a Court of Law? Proving to the whole World that the US is a Banana Republic. Innocent until proven guilty in the US is a joke! All Americans see themselves in Trumps shoes being fucked by the system. Especially fucked by the "progressive" left.
Spoiling your ballet with NOTA will be wasting your vote and just part of the charade. Standing on the sideline yelling instructions. Maybe Jeff, instead of always condescendingly giving us your advice, maybe you should take heed of you own advice and -"pull your head out of your individual asse about what your government is, what it does"... and work on improving things it does for you - instead of constantly shitting on your country in your every post. It gets old my friend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjhMYv1z0ws 350,000 views in 1-day! 7,500 positive comments.
TRUMP/RAMASWAMY 2024
PUTIN FOR MAN OF THE YEAR
CORNELL WEST - ppppfffft!
Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin!
Danny and I were writing against America's forever wars. Now we have another forever war between Jeff and Dennis over Trump. Call a truce, gents! :-)
It's not "another forever war," Bill. It's just two old farts trying to keep their brain cells functional by engaging in some periodic spirited chit chatter.
But i get Your point. Have a Great day. ~ jeff
What if I told them the left and the right Wing belong to the same Bird!? :/ :o) A little Humor in Uniform... Mondays are bad enough.
Heh. i was wondering how long it would take to get a rise out of BV’s favorite Trumpatista. How Ya doin, Dennis? Howz things down there in Kiwi Land? Still think that when War with China comes to AUKUSA, that You guys will be unaffected?
And Thank You for what folks in the close tactical artillery, air, and naval gunfire support folks call a “Target Rich Environment.”
For example:
So [quote] “200+ million Trump supporters” watched Tucker’s interview with Trump, eh? You sure about that? i watched it just to see what Your Boy had to say. Think i’m the only person on the Planet who did the same thing? And i’m sure that “Niggas For Trump” resonates with You quite well.
And if “folks now know for sure that the 2020 election was rigged,” what do those same folks now know about the 2016 election? Any thoughts on that? And when was the DOJ NOT corrupt? Anytime in Your or my lifetime?
And which “VAST MAJORITY of American people” [EMPHASIS added] were and are “revolted” by Trump getting mug shot is that, Dennis? Got any polls on that?
And in case You didn’t know or understand it: In this country, EVERYBODY who is indicted by a Grand Jury and served a Sopena/ Summons has to: 1] post bail, and 2] get mug shot and fingerprinted. Otherwise, they get arrested on other charges in addition to the original one.
And that is all BEFORE any trial that may ultimately happen. And THAT is why Trump was joined by his 18 co-defendants there in that Georgia Sheriff’s Office.
Trump has not “been fucked” by “the system” At this point, he ~ like his 18 sidekicks ~ has merely been declared officially and legally [regardless of what politicians and other propagandists on either side of the brouhaha may say], and in every other way “innocent until; proven guilty.” That’s what he has that multi-million-dollar legal team for, and why he has it, isn’t it?
And finally, You suggest that i “pull [my] head out of [my] individual asse [sic] about what your government is, what it does... and work on improving things it does for you instead of constantly shitting on it in your every post.”
It’s a shame that You regard pointing out how fucked up this system of government, governance, and the choosing of its governors is as “shitting on it.” But that’s Your problem, and definitely not mine.
You concluded:
TRUMP/RAMASWAMY 2024… . Last time You made a preference/prediction was TRUMP/RFK Jr 2024. What changed? The debate?
PUTIN FOR MAN OF THE YEAR… . For doing exactly what? Invading Ukraine?
CORNELL WEST - ppppfffft!... . Who is Cornell West and what does he have to do with this conversation?
Have a Great day, Dennis Unless, that is, You mean “Great” like Trump, Trumpatismo, and all You Trumpatistas mean it when they talk about making “America GREAT Again.”
ps: And i see where the All-Blacks got their asses kicked by South Africa in the Rugby World Cup 2023 Warmup [https://www.espn.com/rugby/story/_/id/38266848/all-blacks-multiple-issues-confront-springboks-mauling] . What do You make of that? Or are You too busy watching the NFL pre-Season?
Here is what our clever black friends think of the corrupt black Georgia DA, Fat Fani Willis, Jeff.
As a white man...I approve of this! LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMTMRAGXKXc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-jI43pyLro
Go rattle your dags with someone else my man. People like you should be out in the street, shouting and hollering with a cardboard sign and selling pencils from a cup. I'm not buying one of your pencils.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yuVajpEZL2Y
Classic TDS symptom is believing these two views to be true simultaneously:
1. He is a dangerous tyrant who is unpredictable and can't be controlled.
2. He's incompetent and his aides are secretly making all his choices for him.
“TDS…” What’s that? “Trump [the] Dumb Shit”?
Oh, that’s right. It’s “Trump Derangement Syndrome.” See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_derangement_syndrome for details.
A Google Hunt n Gather for “the opposite of trump derangement syndrome” came up with two gems…:
~ 1. Trump superfan Bill Mitchell said that the best way for someone to show their love for Jesus is to help Donald Trump get reelected in 2020.
“Donald Trump is gonna have the results for us, he’s got the ammunition for us,” Mitchell said. “But … we have to put feet to our faith, and go out there and work.”
Mitchell went on to remind viewers that “God is watching us.”
“[God’s] saying, ‘You know what guys? I could do this with a wave of my hand, but I’d rather you do it, because I created you to do stuff, not just to be little puppets down there, running around … I want you to actually do stuff and show me you love me by doing my will.'”
According to Mitchell, “Donald Trump is God’s man.”
“And that’s gonna make liberals’ heads explode, but what do you care? Most of you don’t believe in God anyway. But I believe that Donald Trump is God’s man in this moment.” [Source: https://deadstate.org/trump-superfan-bill-mitchell-god-says-show-me-you-love-me-by-voting-for-donald-trump/ ].
And then there’s this, also from Mitchell:
~ 2, “Some have called me ‘sycophant’ for unrelenting support of the president.
“I am not.
“I believe Trump was sent by God to lead America through this most perilous moment in our history, blessed with a vision and second-sight beyond his innate strategic brilliance.
“He is our voice.” [Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Shitstatistssay/comments/gou6ra/whatever_the_opposite_of_trump_derangement/ .]