Truly one of the great speeches of all time. Sermon, history lesson and prophetic call. I have listened to the Ebenezer Church recording of this speech many times. Now posted here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pdM4Rvwcx8&list=PPSV
"The world now demands a maturity of America that we may not be able to achieve. It demands that we admit that we have been wrong from the beginning of our adventure in Vietnam, that we have been detrimental to the life of the Vietnamese people."
I would like to believe that but sadly, the world doesn't really give a shit. Certainly that's true of most Americans who, so long as the wars don't touch them directly, are so caught up in their daily underwear that they are totally unaware of what has happened to our country. Others see it as an opportunity for profit and only a few really care.
Even the majority of the few that care will still vote for war on election day, as they will insist on voting for a Democrat or a Republican, whichever they view as the least evil. But the outcome is always the same as both political parties are totally dedicated to war and there is no one who will put the brakes on to stop them.
"I would like to believe that but sadly, the world doesn't really give a shit. Certainly that's true of most Americans...."
I think, wrknight, that by, "world," King was referring to everywhere outside the U.S. And as the U.S. commands such power---at the point of a gun---the world DID expect more of this country. It's because US-ians don't give a shit that the world has learned that its expectations were set MUCH too high.
At the end of WWII you are undoubtedly right; and even U.S. citizens bought into that. It was probably the Vietnam War that brought about the great disillusionment, at least in the U.S. But any hopes the rest of the world had for a mature America after Vietnam were clearly dashed by the Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden administrations that have made war the solution to every problem..
Excellent reminder of what’s true and important. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a visionary, an acute observer, and a prophet. That self-styled “beacon of freedom”, the Divided States of America inhabited by hundreds of millions, is where the few visionaries are executed by “lone gunmen.”
Apparently one of LBJ's primary motivations for escalating the Vietnam War was the desire to not go down in history as the guy who lost the war. Of course one of the best ways to avoid losing a war is to not get involved in one in the first place. Nowadays it seems we get involved in wars at the drop of a hat.
LBJ signed the escalation order four days after JFK's assassination. I'd say that his most immediate motivation was to not be the subject of a repeat of Dealey Plaza. Maybe later, he worried about losing face.
My answer to your question is, "yes," Alex, based on years of reading on the subject, not to mention the timing of LBJ's order. Also, six weeks before JFK was killed, he'd drafted a memo planning almost complete withdrawal of the U.S. from Vietnam. He'd presented it to military leadership, and they were not amused, to put it mildly.
As for LBJ, there's some research that suggests he was at least aware of, if not complicit in, the assassination. I wouldn't be surprised.
Off topic, but interesting factoid, if you're interested: both Poppy Bush and Richard Nixon were in Dallas on 11/22/63. Daddy Shrub and Barb left town before noon, then later tried to make that information go away. Contrary to his public statements, Poppy worked for the CIA from the early '60s, hiding behind his oil business. One source:
JFK and MLK, Jr. had to be eliminated because both were preaching a vision that challenged the National Security State, the military-industrial complex, endless war-making, and the entire edifice that exists to promote US global hegemony in perpetuity. Both had achieved broad mass support and were seen as charismatic leaders by a large swath of the American public and, therefore, threats to the existing class structure and power relations in this country. With their assassinations by the National Security State, a very strong message was sent: If you dare to challenge the existing class structure and power relations in this country, you had better watch your back.
Thank You, Bill, for sharing Your thoughts on MLK Day 2024. The more i read those earlier articles You keep referring BV readers to, the more i wish i'd hooked up with it much longer ago than i did. Permit me to share my thoughts on this day...:
It has been argued that the key, indeed critical influence on Martin Luther King’s coming out totally, completely, and forcefully against America’s War in and on the Peoples, Land, Country, and Nation of Vietnam ~ despite the very real risks and threats that such opposition would generate for America’s Civil Rights Movement and, as it turned out, for King personally, as well ~ that influence was Thich Nhat Hahn: the Vietnamese Buddhist Monk who the Nobel Laureate Dr King formally nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1967 even before his anti-War speeches in the Churches.
“As the Nobel Peace Prize Laureate of 1964, I now have the pleasure of proposing to you the name of Thich Nhat Hanh for that award in 1967. I do not personally know of anyone more worthy of the Nobel Peace Prize than this gentle Buddhist monk from Vietnam.”
For an overview of the relationship between Dr King and Thich Nhat Hahn, and Thay’s [Vietnamese for “Teacher”] impact on King’s stance on the War, see any and/or all of the following:
And for a detailed history of that relationship ~ from its beginnings in 1965 to after King’s assassination ~ see BROTHERS IN THE BELOVED COMMUNITY: The Friendship of Thich Nhat Hanh and Martin Luther King Jr., by The Right Reverend Dr. Marc Andrus, the 8th bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of California.
I believe when they say "War Hero" they mean he, or she are a Hero, and they are because they gave their life in Battle and saved others their brother soldiers, or even helped hasten the defeat of a sworn enemy this can be a righteous kill like a David over a Goliath say...! And this is noble in the main, but you're right obviously War is or should always be a last resort... MLK was a true, religious, holy man who never lacked for guts despite his flaws.
Reincarnation may also help! We all reincarnate-- maybe in your next lifetime you can unconsciously overcome your flaws as well.... Has as much evidence as your beliefs...
Truly one of the great speeches of all time. Sermon, history lesson and prophetic call. I have listened to the Ebenezer Church recording of this speech many times. Now posted here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pdM4Rvwcx8&list=PPSV
"The world now demands a maturity of America that we may not be able to achieve. It demands that we admit that we have been wrong from the beginning of our adventure in Vietnam, that we have been detrimental to the life of the Vietnamese people."
I would like to believe that but sadly, the world doesn't really give a shit. Certainly that's true of most Americans who, so long as the wars don't touch them directly, are so caught up in their daily underwear that they are totally unaware of what has happened to our country. Others see it as an opportunity for profit and only a few really care.
Even the majority of the few that care will still vote for war on election day, as they will insist on voting for a Democrat or a Republican, whichever they view as the least evil. But the outcome is always the same as both political parties are totally dedicated to war and there is no one who will put the brakes on to stop them.
"I would like to believe that but sadly, the world doesn't really give a shit. Certainly that's true of most Americans...."
I think, wrknight, that by, "world," King was referring to everywhere outside the U.S. And as the U.S. commands such power---at the point of a gun---the world DID expect more of this country. It's because US-ians don't give a shit that the world has learned that its expectations were set MUCH too high.
At the end of WWII you are undoubtedly right; and even U.S. citizens bought into that. It was probably the Vietnam War that brought about the great disillusionment, at least in the U.S. But any hopes the rest of the world had for a mature America after Vietnam were clearly dashed by the Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden administrations that have made war the solution to every problem..
Bush I and Bush II, and Clinton, as well.
and Reagan.
Yeah, Ronnie was one of the absolute worst.
Excellent reminder of what’s true and important. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a visionary, an acute observer, and a prophet. That self-styled “beacon of freedom”, the Divided States of America inhabited by hundreds of millions, is where the few visionaries are executed by “lone gunmen.”
Apparently one of LBJ's primary motivations for escalating the Vietnam War was the desire to not go down in history as the guy who lost the war. Of course one of the best ways to avoid losing a war is to not get involved in one in the first place. Nowadays it seems we get involved in wars at the drop of a hat.
LBJ signed the escalation order four days after JFK's assassination. I'd say that his most immediate motivation was to not be the subject of a repeat of Dealey Plaza. Maybe later, he worried about losing face.
He was worried that if he didn't escalate he would be assassinated? That would say something about who he thought killed JFK I guess.
My answer to your question is, "yes," Alex, based on years of reading on the subject, not to mention the timing of LBJ's order. Also, six weeks before JFK was killed, he'd drafted a memo planning almost complete withdrawal of the U.S. from Vietnam. He'd presented it to military leadership, and they were not amused, to put it mildly.
As for LBJ, there's some research that suggests he was at least aware of, if not complicit in, the assassination. I wouldn't be surprised.
Off topic, but interesting factoid, if you're interested: both Poppy Bush and Richard Nixon were in Dallas on 11/22/63. Daddy Shrub and Barb left town before noon, then later tried to make that information go away. Contrary to his public statements, Poppy worked for the CIA from the early '60s, hiding behind his oil business. One source:
https://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/11/us/63-fbi-memo-ties-bush-to-intelligence-agency.html
JFK and MLK, Jr. had to be eliminated because both were preaching a vision that challenged the National Security State, the military-industrial complex, endless war-making, and the entire edifice that exists to promote US global hegemony in perpetuity. Both had achieved broad mass support and were seen as charismatic leaders by a large swath of the American public and, therefore, threats to the existing class structure and power relations in this country. With their assassinations by the National Security State, a very strong message was sent: If you dare to challenge the existing class structure and power relations in this country, you had better watch your back.
Could not agree more, Charlie. And of course, what you say was true of Bobby, as well.
Thank You, Bill, for sharing Your thoughts on MLK Day 2024. The more i read those earlier articles You keep referring BV readers to, the more i wish i'd hooked up with it much longer ago than i did. Permit me to share my thoughts on this day...:
It has been argued that the key, indeed critical influence on Martin Luther King’s coming out totally, completely, and forcefully against America’s War in and on the Peoples, Land, Country, and Nation of Vietnam ~ despite the very real risks and threats that such opposition would generate for America’s Civil Rights Movement and, as it turned out, for King personally, as well ~ that influence was Thich Nhat Hahn: the Vietnamese Buddhist Monk who the Nobel Laureate Dr King formally nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1967 even before his anti-War speeches in the Churches.
The text of Dr King’s Letter of Nomination is available at https://plumvillage.org/letter-from-dr-martin-luther-king-jr-nominating-thich-nhat-hanh-for-the-nobel-peace-prize-in-1967, and begins:
“As the Nobel Peace Prize Laureate of 1964, I now have the pleasure of proposing to you the name of Thich Nhat Hanh for that award in 1967. I do not personally know of anyone more worthy of the Nobel Peace Prize than this gentle Buddhist monk from Vietnam.”
For an overview of the relationship between Dr King and Thich Nhat Hahn, and Thay’s [Vietnamese for “Teacher”] impact on King’s stance on the War, see any and/or all of the following:
1, “Thích Nhất Hạnh and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: Spiritual brothers, partners in nonviolence” at https://usfblogs.usfca.edu/fierce-urgency/2021/10/12/thich-nhat-hanh-and-dr-martin-luther-king-jr-spiritual-brothers-partners-in-nonviolence/ .
2. “’I Have Always Felt His Support’: A look into the friendship of Thich Nhat Hanh and Martin Luther King Jr., two brothers working to build a Beloved Community” at https://tricycle.org/article/martin-luther-king-thich-nhat-hanh/ .
3. “What Happens When Two Giants Meet?” at https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/blog/2017/8/9/when-giants-meet .
4. “The Buddhist and The Christian: When Thich Nhat Hanh Met Martin Luther King Jr.” at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo34-B5EXYw .
And for a detailed history of that relationship ~ from its beginnings in 1965 to after King’s assassination ~ see BROTHERS IN THE BELOVED COMMUNITY: The Friendship of Thich Nhat Hanh and Martin Luther King Jr., by The Right Reverend Dr. Marc Andrus, the 8th bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of California.
BROTHERS is available from Parallax Press at https://www.parallax.org/product/brothers-in-the-beloved-community/#product-content , and Amazon at https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1952692458?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1 .
To paraphrase Edith and Archie Bunker: “Mister, we could use some men like TNH and MLK agaaain… .” [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fye4uY3pCvo ]
I believe when they say "War Hero" they mean he, or she are a Hero, and they are because they gave their life in Battle and saved others their brother soldiers, or even helped hasten the defeat of a sworn enemy this can be a righteous kill like a David over a Goliath say...! And this is noble in the main, but you're right obviously War is or should always be a last resort... MLK was a true, religious, holy man who never lacked for guts despite his flaws.
Reincarnation may also help! We all reincarnate-- maybe in your next lifetime you can unconsciously overcome your flaws as well.... Has as much evidence as your beliefs...