When I see Harris/Walz supporters posting, "Vote like its 1933 in Germany," I want to say, "Then, clearly you can't support your candidate who is already guilty of genocide and militarism."
Not sure what they mean. The 1933 German Parliamentary elections were one party elections after Hitler had been made Chancellor and abolished other parties and imprisoned opposition leaders via the Enabling Act. Not surprisingly the Nazis won all 661 seats. Is that what the Harris supporters are hoping for? They've already got the opposition leader (Trump) about to be sentenced and his party largely shut out from the mainstream media. I would say that the Democrats are really the fascists here. Fascist Marxists. Or Marxist Fascists.
"This is another reason I like Jill Stein and the Green Party. Stein has called for a $25 federal minimum wage, which, if you worked 50 weeks for 40 hours a week, would amount to $50,000 a year. Too generous?" Bill the fact that 50 thousand a year is seen by both parties and by so many Americans as too generous-as unaffordable rather than something we cannot afford NOT to afford says so much. It gets at the myths of deserving- myths of meriting that has billionaires owning our politics. Most of us know (I hope) that Musk does not merit becoming a trillionaire, yet so many are far from seeing that all working people deserve a working wage. That's not a call for equality or socialism but a call for distribution of wealth that is not so grotesquely unfair- not so removed from how the wealth was actually made.
I wrote an article about the gross domestic profit where I divided that amount of money by the number of people in the US. It came out to about $6o,000 per person per year. For a family of 5 that would be $300,000 per year. So you can see where people like Musk get their $200 billion from, they are basically robbing it from everyone else.
When there are some people with billions of dollars (who can completely screw up our news media and our government) and millions of homeless people, something is wrong. Wouldn't you agree?
Robert Redford said in an interview years ago that whenever he heard a politician use the word "freedom", he substituted "capitalism", and the statement made perfect sense.
Now with these nitwits throwing "fascist" and "Marxist" at each other, I wonder if we should just substitute "anti-empire" or "anti-corporatist".
I admit my favorite Reagan quote was, "I think you all know that I've always felt the nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help."
I certainly feel like running as fast as I can from the party promises going around these days.
Unfortunately, that kind of statement was and is how we isolate ourselves from even THINKING our government is an “us” and not a “them.” I see it as brainwashing …
Reagan telling people to “vote with their feet” and move to places where there were more jobs or some other social factors they preferred was damaging to communities, too. I can find a lot of things in her oeuvre to criticize, but I still think a lot about something Margaret Mead talked about in a lecture I attended once a long time ago — she was looking at how people abandon a place, instead of improving it … How we hollow out our cities, how we produce fragmentation and anomie, and lose the social glue that comes from knowing each other, often for generations.
Ah, it’s a big thing to think about — social engineering, societal stresses and lines of force … But I did not find much of what Reagan did of a salutary nature. Many elements of our social contract came under stress during his era — including tons of off-shoring of jobs, temping of jobs, breaking up neighborhoods, fomenting distrust … Well, that’s how his era looked to me, when I was living it.
I remember all too well the riots and assassinations of the ’60’s to lay “cities being hollowed out” on Reagan. I’m not defending Reagan, only adding some context. California was booming, so I’m sure the former governor thought what worked there would work for the country.
I’m in agreement with Wendell Berry that the assault on the small farmer and small communities that thrived among the small farms accelerated greatly after the industrialization of WWII. The goverment directive was, "Get big or get out." My dad finally decided to get out--selling our four-generation Ohio farm.
Reagan/Gorbachev accomplished the first real step in nuclear non-proliferation with the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty. It was William Jefferson Clinton who first used NATO as an offensive force, truly accelerated US deindustrialization—moving manufacturing jobs to Mexico and overseas, deregulated banks, and signed into law now notorious reforms of the “welfare State” and criminal justice reforms. It was Clinton who ignored assurances given Gorbachev that NATO would not expand east. And so here we are….
I did not lay “cities being hollowed out” on Reagan. I heard the lecture by Mead at least a decade before Ronnie was elected, but he encouraged the behavior that Mead described — abandoning a troubled place instead of working to remedy the problems and maintain community and connection with people and place. Whatever Ronnie thought would work, he did not know the ramifications of what he espoused. I know he had government experience and management experience, but he came to it, I contend, because the people of California, like so many in the U.S., fell sway to the American fascination with celebrity and faux-competence.
I’ve been reading about the Heritage Society’s influence over Ronnie and the Republican Party from way back then. And union busting. Ronnie was a tool.
I am SO sorry to read about the loss of your four-generation family farm., Tom. I live in Vermont. Have been here 25 years. My folks moved here in the 60s … It has been so sad to see the loss of farms and working land right in our little state {well-managed working land, one would hope}, and to see the source of our food move farther and farther from us.
The lure of immediate “economic” gains leads to long-term destruction of human connectedness and true “prosperity,” as it would be measured in more than dollars. I hate the very concept of “factory farming” and the massive conglomerate farms pretending to be so many “family” enterprises to suck benefits out of the government.
I’m doing this on recall, mostly, but the off-shoring of American jobs started way before Clinton. The GATT and WTO were around long before Slick Willy, too. He did give ‘em the coup de grace, though, I’ll give you that.
But Saint Ronnie {OK, I do tend to get a little snarky} presided over a serious change in the relationship between big business and the labor pool — both blue AND white collar labor. The gig economy and temping grew during Reagan and HW’s administrations … And off-shoring {while getting the government to actually HELP to pay the cost of moving companies!!} was going on big-time before Willy showed up.
Transnational corporations lied to people, telling us they had a “fiduciary responsibility” to maximize shareholder value, which was a lie. Prior to the Reagan years, corporations and businesses addressed STAKEHOLDER concerns, which included but were not restricted to shareholder value. The Reagan years changed all that based on a lie. There was NO law that said corporations could not make decisions based on all stakeholder concerns. Mmmmmph. But we bought the lie, and sending jobs overseas and south grew and grew and grew.
And, yes, Clinton harmed the U.S. job market but he also undermined and decimated the small-farm agrarian economy in Mexico, doing great harm to communities there, too. Driving many more poor Mexicans to come to the U.S. for opportunities…a trend that continues, along with migration based on all kinds of stresses, not the least of which climate change.
You got it right about Slick Willy’s attitude toward criminal justice, I’d say.
Getting rid of Glass-Steagall was an abomination that led directly to the meltdown in 2008, which we blamed on poor people, of course… {I worked on a book with a retired V-P from Merrill Lynch, and I learned SO much!}.
AND, mmmmm. Promising that the Europeans would not strike stronger ties with ex-Soviet states — that was never written into a treaty, though it was said. HOWEVER, did the U.S. and Russia have a mandate to determine the fate and alliances of all the countries in Europe, ad infinitum? Mmmmm, some of them are really afraid of Vladimir. I’ve also seen volumes of records kept of the treatment given people behind what we called the Iron Curtain, and it was CHILLING. Not even violent — but mental torture on a horrid scale.
Vlad wants to reconstitute the high point of his country’s empire … he makes no secret of it. I don’t buy that he went into Ukraine because of NATO, though the antagonisms going back and forth since Gorby went away and Yeltsin took over didn’t help. Vlad wants to retake old Soviet satellites because he wants them. No matter what they do, he’ll find an excuse, if he really wants to.
Nice. But he did work his way up in his profession and made entertaining well-received movies, made smart investments in land (e.g., Sundance), has helped others in his industry, and has been active in environmental efforts. Much more honorable than the people who made their fortunes by rigging the financial system and plundered it (e.g., banksters).
LOL …I always laugh at people who call the Soviet, Russian, Chinese, Korean, et al, despots “Marxists” and “Communists.” They are no more following Marx or so-called communism than Hitler did
They were all despots … maintaining total and rigid control over rich and labor alike … Not to the benefit of the “proletariat,” but to themselves. I haven’t seen a ACTUAL communist regime in an entire country since … well, never.
A Kibbutz, maybe, but they are little village-sized entities, not countries.
And putting Harris and Stalin in the same boat? Egad, talk about hyperbole …
Let’s get real.
Is it any surprise I’m NOT voting in a way that enables the Hitler wannabe? {Now, HE has said how he feels and what he wants …no hyperbole involved with Trump. The Orange Fascist.
I’m tryig to preserve something in the U.S. Our best chance to do that ths year is NOT performative votes for Stein.
Performative Pat? That's the best you can come up with? How about a vote of conscience? How about a vote against militarism? (Harris is a big military supporter). The people who vote for Stein actually care about the things they claim to care about, like peace and spending tax dollars to fix this country instead of bombing other countries. I and my wife have already voted for Stein and we feel really good about it.
Performative. John. Is that the best YOU can do. I’ve said over and over here, if Stein really wanted to EFFECT CHANGE she’d stop these symbolic runs for president and go for something where she can really make a difference, not just spout.
She could run for a LOT of offices where she’d have a chance … and establish a network and more bona fides. If she’d been working at it better and for a while, she MIGHT even get to where she could mount a campaign for president and be valid.
THIS is performative — using the run as a way to amplify her talking points {she’s a “candidate for president,” after all, so we gotta listen to her, even though she ain’t done the work to build a constituency that could POSSIBLY get her elected.
I’d love to see some Third Party types challenge the two entrenched parties — don’t get me wrong, I’m not a Democrat — but I am also looking at the world through clear glass, and I see this election as our reasonability to make sure DJT does not get into the White House.
My conscience is WAY clear — I know where the threats lie, and I know what I plan to do if and when we succeed in keeping the despots and Christian Nationalists OUT or power this year …
I alreadt voted, too. And I feel good about it.
I’m going to STILL feel good after we see who won. No matter who it is. Believe me. I don’t plan to shut up talking rationality and decency to the rafters, no matter who wins …But I know I gave it my best shot to resist The Orange Disaster.
Nobody seems to have anything to say about my suggestion that Stein COULD have built a constituency, COULD have run for offices and gained experience and a track record and built her validity. She didn’t. She just runs for president and runs her mouth.
I don’t believe in her.
{And I have lots to say about Harris in the future, too…. But in the real world, It’s Harris or Trump. I voted for Harris.}
For me, it's been the same choice with different names since my first vote, in 1976. I remember being enthusiastically behind Mo Udall for the Dem nominee, but he lost out to Carter. And even then, it was. "Carter or else."
If we sit on our butts for the next four years, then we’ll DESERVE to have no other choice at that time, too.
Like Stein has done between HER runs “for president.” When you get to a place where you want to be a legitimate candidate, you gotta have done SOMETHING to develop the constituency, the network, the human infrastructure to make it real. She dint.
Y’all have a nice day.
{And if you really ARE looking forward to Kamala’s decisive action to end the genocide in Gaza, then I’d expect to see and hear more from you in the next four years pushing for that to happen — IF she wins. We gotta put our energy where our mouth is, but not so we FEEL good. We gotta wind up DOING good. Go for it!}
About building a constituency....Stein has been an activist for 26 years, working for various causes. It's a guarantee that she's never going to be able to build a structure to get elected, as long as the DNC is around to tank it in favor of corporate ownership. All she can do is bring important issues to the fore and enlist support for the good fight.
But consider Obama----he was a community organizer who initially gained political connections through his wife. He served in the Illinois state senate, and was judged by the DNC to have White House potential. All of a sudden, BOOM! After the DNC convention keynote in 2004, he was a U.S. senator. He served for 3 years and then the DNC decided it was time for him to run for President. Nothing in the way of governing bona fides, but that all-important difference: backing from the DNC. And they got what they paid for. They chose him, groomed him for a few years, and put him in the Oval Office. No constituency building necessary; he just had to bend the knee when required.
Obama is an example of the American Dream. The reward is the thing, not the means to get it, and he has not engaged in the kind of behavior that some have to get to the top. Wealth is adored by all and none care to dig into how it was obtained. What one has to show is what counts. It's the old thing about the end justifying the means.
In politics this is supreme. Do what you have to do, say what you have to say to get into office and stay there. Success is the reward and justification for any behavior that leads up to it.
I know she’s been around as “an activist” for a long time. I think, if she wanted to be more effective, she’d have taken THAT experience and parlayed it into office, voice, a vote in Congress maybe, establishing a network … I dunno. I just think she’d be more savvy and effective, instead of not being savvy and effective.
Obama’s trajectory … yeah. But you say about Stein … “all she can do is bring important issues to the fore and enlist support for the good fight. “
Well, THAT is what I’m talking about! Her being MORE EFFECTIVE at doing that, if she did more than performatively “run for president” now and then.
I’m just not impressed.
{I WAS impressed by Nader, for that matter … over a lot of years — HE did succeed in bringing change, not on every issue he championed, but he made a difference — and then, in 2000 … well, that was a time that definitely made an impression on some of us. Strategy and the big picture actually matter … And knowing who you’re dealing with, and what risks you can take. I thought Republicans would be stinkers, but did not expect Dubya and Dick …Hmmmh.Lessons learned.}
Can’t risk Trump.
Just can’t. Especially not to “send a message” to anybody. Ooooof!
Pat, that a person who has taken a stand is denounced because that person does not "do anything" is nonsense, a cover for the accuser to avoid having to say he/she doesn't support the position of the accused. Harris has not "done anything" and may be the next President.
Tell us what positions Stein holds that you do not like and oppose, otherwise you are not "doing anything"
The election is going to be decided in something like 15 counties total ( in the 'swing' states) out of the entire electorate. That to me is the biggest travesty of our 'democratic' process. Without arguing the merits or failures of the electoral college system - versus a popular vote, the situation drives carefully tuned narrow wedge issues and personal attacks as the campaign messaging.
Unless someone here lives in one of those counties, it can be safely assumed that everyone knows how their state will vote.
Most of us what's going on here is people expressing their fears about a particular candidate or their disdain at the system. I understand your fears about Trump - but except for his boorish behavior, I don't see him becoming the dictator he's been said to be (he wasn't last time). Same with Harris is not going to be standing on the podium while the Internationale plays.
But as long as the corporate parties know we will vote for them no matter what, they have no interest in changing or listening to us. I live in a blue PNW state that is solidly voting for Harris. I voted for Stein and hope others do too - not that it will change the results, but hopefully to have a distinct minority who show we're not buying their BS.
I live in Vermont. I EXPECT the state to go Blue. We are also Green. {That was not meant to be a pun, but it can be, if anybody wants it to be.}
Trump was not a dictator the last time because there were too many people standing in the way. Don’t kid yourself — there are people behind that incompetent blowhard now who have been encouraged to crawl out from under their rocks, and they will get him in place, and use him to their own ends … because he’s a fool and a tool, and I’m NOT really afraid of him. I’m afraid of the theocrats and white nationalists and the Federalists and the Heritage Society types who are behind him, using him … And then there’s always Vance in the wings …}.
You have a point, though {as does everyone who wants more than an entrenched two-party system — it’s another of my pet peeves that we TALK about enabling a system that demands more coalitions, but we don’t push it enough — I’d so love us to be parliamentary … sigh.} SO MUCH more needs doing to break the stranglehold of only two parties that get too entrenched …
And we already know why the Electoral College exists — a sop to the slave holders. Still around. Needs to be defanged, if not altogether scrapped. It’s not llike nobody is TALKING about it … More of us could get behind making THAT happen, especially if we have more people in the Senate and the House — OH, RIGHT. If people want to effect change, they can run for THOSE offices, too!
OH, really? Well, you should look back at the comments you and others make about what it means to vote for the Democratic ticket. Supporting genocide? Equating the choice between voting for the Republican or the Democrat as Hitler v Stalin?
Be serious, Bill.
If you don’t like my point — which is that a vote for Stein is more symbolic than other … that’s your right. But I think the conversation here has been similar on both ends.
You obviously don't care about actual policies, since Harris is campaigning with Liz Cheney and is running on a Republican pro-war platform. So if you actually cared about policies, you would never vote for her, at least if your claims of wanting peace are true. Your vote for Harris is a knee-jerk "my team is always right", self-defeating exercise. You "win" the election, and your lose big time on what our country does with your tax dollars for the next 4 year (which will be to keep bombing and sanctioning other countries). You are the one who is deluding yourself.
Stein is giving people an option that doesn't include war. It is people like you who will make sure she can never win an election.
YOU obviously are mischaracterizing my position and things I said. Harris is NOT running on a Republican “pro-war”platform, but you would only know that if you actually listened to HER and not to people who are telling you what she is running on.
There’s no “if” about my commitment to decency in the world … “peace” being a word that means a lot more than just the absence of fighting …
You are here characterizing my vote as “knee-jerk” and ‘my team is always right” — that in no way describe me or my thoughts and actions. I wonder if Bill Astore will scold you for that.
Ms. Stein offers only the satisfaction of not voting for one of two other people, IF I thought I could not honestly vote for one of them. I can honestly and with confidence vote for Harris and expect to continue to express my opinions about her policies and to make my voice heard when I do’t like them.
If i throw my vote away and Trump gets in, THAT would be a disaster, and loss you describe.
We COULD have an absence of war is we surrender everytime a war-monger shows up, too. That’s not peace … that’s subugation. I don’t want war. Neithr do I want appeasement.
I want rational, worldwide cooperation to avoid massacres …
Anyhow, Harris is touting the Cheneys, she does support Ukraine's war against Russia, she does fully support Israel in whatever it does, and she says Iran is our gravest threat, so I assume she supports Israel's attack last night, and probably will support direct U.S. military attacks on Iran. That seems "pro-war" to me.
Stein talks a lot more about peace and much more against war than Kamala does.
I want peace and I'm against war so I find Stein's positions far more compelling than Kamala's. Just saying, hopefully without scolding.
And, lest I forget to mention!! … You term it “Ukraine’s war against Russia.”
WOW!!! Not Ukraine’s defense against Russian invasion? Your phrasing sounds like Ukraine was the aggressor instead of the defender. Maybe you do see it differently than I do.
If Stein had a snowball’s chance in hell of keeping Trump out of office and making it to the White House, I MIGHT consider evaluating her positions… as she does not…as all she offers is aid to Trump … I cannot in good faith consider her an option.
And, after all these years, for reasons I have already given, I don’t trust her.
Ooooohhhh, my, oh, my, oh, my! If THEIR candidate succeeds — and by “they,” I mean the people who want Trump — we are going to have to “suck it up” for a hell of a lot longer than four years … I’m not sure what kind of a mess they’ll make.
FOR INSTANCE, are we or are we not still “sucking it up” over the mess that Dubya {Cheney} made in the Middle East? They did have more than four years in office granted, but …
{And, yes, before anyone asks, I DO find it ironic and amazing that not only Dick’s daughter, but Dick himself does NOT want the Orange Disaster to ring in Project 2025. Dick seemed ready to do any damned thing he wanted to do, dreaming up justifications and work-arounds like WMD, the Yoo Torture Memo, and Guantanamo to pave his way. But apparently out-right-Fascism and further “suspending” aspects of the Constitution are a bridge too far for even him…. Who knew?}
I am not sanguine at all about the prospect of trying to sit out another Trump term … I think he can blow us all up in a few weeks. No telling WHAT he’d do this time around, once he get’s rid of all the rational people in Washington …
Not including the fact that most of the stuff attributed to Marx was apparently written by Engels. Engels was a capitalist after all (he inherited a factory from his father) so they couldn't really have a capitalist arguing against capitalism. Marx on the other hand was a bum supported largely by Engels so that made it all right. A true hero for our time (sarc).
Humans frequently have to decide between two negatives. That's life!
Unless, of course, you're so high-minded that you simply can't get any mud at all on your shoes. Well, bravo!
Just look at a few issues other than minimum wage, many are more important. Stretch that high-minded imagination a little bit and get in the reality game.
Perhaps Jill is as nice and generous a person as any politician can be. But, she's still just a very nice loser.
Regarding Jill Stein, I dropped off my wife's mail-in ballot at the early voting polling station. Outside there was a woman passing out leaflets for Harris/Democrats. I asked her if I could do as she was doing but for Jill Stein. She said, "you can, but I hope you won't" another example of the view that a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump.
Since I have been picketing for Stein in my city's downtown and also at the entrance to Northwestern University, it dawned on me that the early voting station is really the place to be, so starting today I will be there wearing a sign that says...
"WRITE-IN JILL STEIN
>End Support of Israel's Butchery
>Liberty and Justice FOR ALL
>Break the Grip of Ethnic Cleansing Zionism on our country
How about the Prosecuter versus the Felon? Who never takes responsibility for anything he's ever done... Only in America looking pretty bleak. Can we get "Comet Atlas" to reverse direction!? Climate change happening a little too slow where you are? I'm still wearing my Cut-offs and short sleeve shirts in R.I. A mountainous sized "Dirty-Snowball" never looked so good. Seeking a friend for the end of the world? Planet extinction anyone? :/ :o) Our world is 4.56 Billion yrs. old. It sure has a knack for sticking around tho. 11 more days and a wake-up!
"Many people think I’m crazy to support someone like Jill Stein."
Why do you keep listening to any of those people? You keep wiggling that loose tooth. Take a relaxing vacation at some pleasnt location until after the election.
You, too, can hire a generic protest. The people are told to move their mouths like they are shouting but to remain silent. They hold up green cards that can be filled in digitally. Work your way through college! https://vimeo.com/735616690
When I see Harris/Walz supporters posting, "Vote like its 1933 in Germany," I want to say, "Then, clearly you can't support your candidate who is already guilty of genocide and militarism."
Not sure what they mean. The 1933 German Parliamentary elections were one party elections after Hitler had been made Chancellor and abolished other parties and imprisoned opposition leaders via the Enabling Act. Not surprisingly the Nazis won all 661 seats. Is that what the Harris supporters are hoping for? They've already got the opposition leader (Trump) about to be sentenced and his party largely shut out from the mainstream media. I would say that the Democrats are really the fascists here. Fascist Marxists. Or Marxist Fascists.
More fascist moves from Biden-Harris. Don't they know that Joseph Goebbels is dead? https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/oct/24/biden-administration-weighing-information-czar-nat/
"This is another reason I like Jill Stein and the Green Party. Stein has called for a $25 federal minimum wage, which, if you worked 50 weeks for 40 hours a week, would amount to $50,000 a year. Too generous?" Bill the fact that 50 thousand a year is seen by both parties and by so many Americans as too generous-as unaffordable rather than something we cannot afford NOT to afford says so much. It gets at the myths of deserving- myths of meriting that has billionaires owning our politics. Most of us know (I hope) that Musk does not merit becoming a trillionaire, yet so many are far from seeing that all working people deserve a working wage. That's not a call for equality or socialism but a call for distribution of wealth that is not so grotesquely unfair- not so removed from how the wealth was actually made.
I wrote an article about the gross domestic profit where I divided that amount of money by the number of people in the US. It came out to about $6o,000 per person per year. For a family of 5 that would be $300,000 per year. So you can see where people like Musk get their $200 billion from, they are basically robbing it from everyone else.
So everybody making more than $300K is a thief and everyone making less than $300K is a victim? Well that's one way to look at it.
When there are some people with billions of dollars (who can completely screw up our news media and our government) and millions of homeless people, something is wrong. Wouldn't you agree?
Gee wizard. You're a Socialist. Except it never works out that way, does it?
For some very odd reason a few get most of it and millions don't? You need to work on WHY.
I have a hard time seeing Atlantic magazine's four armed Lotus goddess as a follower of Marx.
It will feel so good when I go into that booth and vote my conscience.
People
Planet
**Peace**
Robert Redford said in an interview years ago that whenever he heard a politician use the word "freedom", he substituted "capitalism", and the statement made perfect sense.
Now with these nitwits throwing "fascist" and "Marxist" at each other, I wonder if we should just substitute "anti-empire" or "anti-corporatist".
I admit my favorite Reagan quote was, "I think you all know that I've always felt the nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help."
I certainly feel like running as fast as I can from the party promises going around these days.
Unfortunately, that kind of statement was and is how we isolate ourselves from even THINKING our government is an “us” and not a “them.” I see it as brainwashing …
Reagan telling people to “vote with their feet” and move to places where there were more jobs or some other social factors they preferred was damaging to communities, too. I can find a lot of things in her oeuvre to criticize, but I still think a lot about something Margaret Mead talked about in a lecture I attended once a long time ago — she was looking at how people abandon a place, instead of improving it … How we hollow out our cities, how we produce fragmentation and anomie, and lose the social glue that comes from knowing each other, often for generations.
Ah, it’s a big thing to think about — social engineering, societal stresses and lines of force … But I did not find much of what Reagan did of a salutary nature. Many elements of our social contract came under stress during his era — including tons of off-shoring of jobs, temping of jobs, breaking up neighborhoods, fomenting distrust … Well, that’s how his era looked to me, when I was living it.
Sigh.
Maybe I’ve said my piece …
I remember all too well the riots and assassinations of the ’60’s to lay “cities being hollowed out” on Reagan. I’m not defending Reagan, only adding some context. California was booming, so I’m sure the former governor thought what worked there would work for the country.
I’m in agreement with Wendell Berry that the assault on the small farmer and small communities that thrived among the small farms accelerated greatly after the industrialization of WWII. The goverment directive was, "Get big or get out." My dad finally decided to get out--selling our four-generation Ohio farm.
Reagan/Gorbachev accomplished the first real step in nuclear non-proliferation with the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty. It was William Jefferson Clinton who first used NATO as an offensive force, truly accelerated US deindustrialization—moving manufacturing jobs to Mexico and overseas, deregulated banks, and signed into law now notorious reforms of the “welfare State” and criminal justice reforms. It was Clinton who ignored assurances given Gorbachev that NATO would not expand east. And so here we are….
I did not lay “cities being hollowed out” on Reagan. I heard the lecture by Mead at least a decade before Ronnie was elected, but he encouraged the behavior that Mead described — abandoning a troubled place instead of working to remedy the problems and maintain community and connection with people and place. Whatever Ronnie thought would work, he did not know the ramifications of what he espoused. I know he had government experience and management experience, but he came to it, I contend, because the people of California, like so many in the U.S., fell sway to the American fascination with celebrity and faux-competence.
I’ve been reading about the Heritage Society’s influence over Ronnie and the Republican Party from way back then. And union busting. Ronnie was a tool.
I am SO sorry to read about the loss of your four-generation family farm., Tom. I live in Vermont. Have been here 25 years. My folks moved here in the 60s … It has been so sad to see the loss of farms and working land right in our little state {well-managed working land, one would hope}, and to see the source of our food move farther and farther from us.
The lure of immediate “economic” gains leads to long-term destruction of human connectedness and true “prosperity,” as it would be measured in more than dollars. I hate the very concept of “factory farming” and the massive conglomerate farms pretending to be so many “family” enterprises to suck benefits out of the government.
I’m doing this on recall, mostly, but the off-shoring of American jobs started way before Clinton. The GATT and WTO were around long before Slick Willy, too. He did give ‘em the coup de grace, though, I’ll give you that.
But Saint Ronnie {OK, I do tend to get a little snarky} presided over a serious change in the relationship between big business and the labor pool — both blue AND white collar labor. The gig economy and temping grew during Reagan and HW’s administrations … And off-shoring {while getting the government to actually HELP to pay the cost of moving companies!!} was going on big-time before Willy showed up.
Transnational corporations lied to people, telling us they had a “fiduciary responsibility” to maximize shareholder value, which was a lie. Prior to the Reagan years, corporations and businesses addressed STAKEHOLDER concerns, which included but were not restricted to shareholder value. The Reagan years changed all that based on a lie. There was NO law that said corporations could not make decisions based on all stakeholder concerns. Mmmmmph. But we bought the lie, and sending jobs overseas and south grew and grew and grew.
And, yes, Clinton harmed the U.S. job market but he also undermined and decimated the small-farm agrarian economy in Mexico, doing great harm to communities there, too. Driving many more poor Mexicans to come to the U.S. for opportunities…a trend that continues, along with migration based on all kinds of stresses, not the least of which climate change.
You got it right about Slick Willy’s attitude toward criminal justice, I’d say.
Getting rid of Glass-Steagall was an abomination that led directly to the meltdown in 2008, which we blamed on poor people, of course… {I worked on a book with a retired V-P from Merrill Lynch, and I learned SO much!}.
AND, mmmmm. Promising that the Europeans would not strike stronger ties with ex-Soviet states — that was never written into a treaty, though it was said. HOWEVER, did the U.S. and Russia have a mandate to determine the fate and alliances of all the countries in Europe, ad infinitum? Mmmmm, some of them are really afraid of Vladimir. I’ve also seen volumes of records kept of the treatment given people behind what we called the Iron Curtain, and it was CHILLING. Not even violent — but mental torture on a horrid scale.
Vlad wants to reconstitute the high point of his country’s empire … he makes no secret of it. I don’t buy that he went into Ukraine because of NATO, though the antagonisms going back and forth since Gorby went away and Yeltsin took over didn’t help. Vlad wants to retake old Soviet satellites because he wants them. No matter what they do, he’ll find an excuse, if he really wants to.
That’s how it looks from where I sit.
Onward and upward.
Let’s hope the fascists don’t prevail.
That doesn't work because both are "pro-empirists" and "pro-corporaritists".
Absolutely. And maybe that's the point - the labels are as empty as their values.
Capitalism has been good to Robert Redford. Behold his Utah abode. The rest of us should have it so good: https://toptenrealestatedeals.com/weekly-ten-best-home-deals/home/robert-redfords-wine-country-estate
Nice. But he did work his way up in his profession and made entertaining well-received movies, made smart investments in land (e.g., Sundance), has helped others in his industry, and has been active in environmental efforts. Much more honorable than the people who made their fortunes by rigging the financial system and plundered it (e.g., banksters).
Very true. It seems some of the smartest people are making money off of money. Only in America. Well, maybe in London too. And Brussels. And ....
LOL …I always laugh at people who call the Soviet, Russian, Chinese, Korean, et al, despots “Marxists” and “Communists.” They are no more following Marx or so-called communism than Hitler did
They were all despots … maintaining total and rigid control over rich and labor alike … Not to the benefit of the “proletariat,” but to themselves. I haven’t seen a ACTUAL communist regime in an entire country since … well, never.
A Kibbutz, maybe, but they are little village-sized entities, not countries.
And putting Harris and Stalin in the same boat? Egad, talk about hyperbole …
Let’s get real.
Is it any surprise I’m NOT voting in a way that enables the Hitler wannabe? {Now, HE has said how he feels and what he wants …no hyperbole involved with Trump. The Orange Fascist.
I’m tryig to preserve something in the U.S. Our best chance to do that ths year is NOT performative votes for Stein.
Performative Pat? That's the best you can come up with? How about a vote of conscience? How about a vote against militarism? (Harris is a big military supporter). The people who vote for Stein actually care about the things they claim to care about, like peace and spending tax dollars to fix this country instead of bombing other countries. I and my wife have already voted for Stein and we feel really good about it.
Performative. John. Is that the best YOU can do. I’ve said over and over here, if Stein really wanted to EFFECT CHANGE she’d stop these symbolic runs for president and go for something where she can really make a difference, not just spout.
She could run for a LOT of offices where she’d have a chance … and establish a network and more bona fides. If she’d been working at it better and for a while, she MIGHT even get to where she could mount a campaign for president and be valid.
THIS is performative — using the run as a way to amplify her talking points {she’s a “candidate for president,” after all, so we gotta listen to her, even though she ain’t done the work to build a constituency that could POSSIBLY get her elected.
I’d love to see some Third Party types challenge the two entrenched parties — don’t get me wrong, I’m not a Democrat — but I am also looking at the world through clear glass, and I see this election as our reasonability to make sure DJT does not get into the White House.
My conscience is WAY clear — I know where the threats lie, and I know what I plan to do if and when we succeed in keeping the despots and Christian Nationalists OUT or power this year …
I alreadt voted, too. And I feel good about it.
I’m going to STILL feel good after we see who won. No matter who it is. Believe me. I don’t plan to shut up talking rationality and decency to the rafters, no matter who wins …But I know I gave it my best shot to resist The Orange Disaster.
Nobody seems to have anything to say about my suggestion that Stein COULD have built a constituency, COULD have run for offices and gained experience and a track record and built her validity. She didn’t. She just runs for president and runs her mouth.
I don’t believe in her.
{And I have lots to say about Harris in the future, too…. But in the real world, It’s Harris or Trump. I voted for Harris.}
Peace on us all, I f-ing hope!
So the only way to resist "The Orange Disaster" is to vote for whichever person the corporate DNC puts forward? In this case, Kamala?
Some "choice" we have in America.
Just wait until 2028. It'll be the same "choice" with different names. And you'll be telling us yet again we MUST vote for the DNC-anointed candidate.
Assuming Harris wins, I'm really looking forward to her decisive action to end genocide in Gaza.
For me, it's been the same choice with different names since my first vote, in 1976. I remember being enthusiastically behind Mo Udall for the Dem nominee, but he lost out to Carter. And even then, it was. "Carter or else."
Bill, this year, YES, that’s our choice.
If we sit on our butts for the next four years, then we’ll DESERVE to have no other choice at that time, too.
Like Stein has done between HER runs “for president.” When you get to a place where you want to be a legitimate candidate, you gotta have done SOMETHING to develop the constituency, the network, the human infrastructure to make it real. She dint.
Y’all have a nice day.
{And if you really ARE looking forward to Kamala’s decisive action to end the genocide in Gaza, then I’d expect to see and hear more from you in the next four years pushing for that to happen — IF she wins. We gotta put our energy where our mouth is, but not so we FEEL good. We gotta wind up DOING good. Go for it!}
About building a constituency....Stein has been an activist for 26 years, working for various causes. It's a guarantee that she's never going to be able to build a structure to get elected, as long as the DNC is around to tank it in favor of corporate ownership. All she can do is bring important issues to the fore and enlist support for the good fight.
But consider Obama----he was a community organizer who initially gained political connections through his wife. He served in the Illinois state senate, and was judged by the DNC to have White House potential. All of a sudden, BOOM! After the DNC convention keynote in 2004, he was a U.S. senator. He served for 3 years and then the DNC decided it was time for him to run for President. Nothing in the way of governing bona fides, but that all-important difference: backing from the DNC. And they got what they paid for. They chose him, groomed him for a few years, and put him in the Oval Office. No constituency building necessary; he just had to bend the knee when required.
And now a 'community organizer' with mansions on Martha's Vineyard and in Hawaii.
Obama is an example of the American Dream. The reward is the thing, not the means to get it, and he has not engaged in the kind of behavior that some have to get to the top. Wealth is adored by all and none care to dig into how it was obtained. What one has to show is what counts. It's the old thing about the end justifying the means.
In politics this is supreme. Do what you have to do, say what you have to say to get into office and stay there. Success is the reward and justification for any behavior that leads up to it.
Yes. His dream. Not ours.
A man at the top of his game. Although if you have to be President to get there it seems to be a very narrow field.
I know she’s been around as “an activist” for a long time. I think, if she wanted to be more effective, she’d have taken THAT experience and parlayed it into office, voice, a vote in Congress maybe, establishing a network … I dunno. I just think she’d be more savvy and effective, instead of not being savvy and effective.
Obama’s trajectory … yeah. But you say about Stein … “all she can do is bring important issues to the fore and enlist support for the good fight. “
Well, THAT is what I’m talking about! Her being MORE EFFECTIVE at doing that, if she did more than performatively “run for president” now and then.
I’m just not impressed.
{I WAS impressed by Nader, for that matter … over a lot of years — HE did succeed in bringing change, not on every issue he championed, but he made a difference — and then, in 2000 … well, that was a time that definitely made an impression on some of us. Strategy and the big picture actually matter … And knowing who you’re dealing with, and what risks you can take. I thought Republicans would be stinkers, but did not expect Dubya and Dick …Hmmmh.Lessons learned.}
Can’t risk Trump.
Just can’t. Especially not to “send a message” to anybody. Ooooof!
Pat, that a person who has taken a stand is denounced because that person does not "do anything" is nonsense, a cover for the accuser to avoid having to say he/she doesn't support the position of the accused. Harris has not "done anything" and may be the next President.
Tell us what positions Stein holds that you do not like and oppose, otherwise you are not "doing anything"
The election is going to be decided in something like 15 counties total ( in the 'swing' states) out of the entire electorate. That to me is the biggest travesty of our 'democratic' process. Without arguing the merits or failures of the electoral college system - versus a popular vote, the situation drives carefully tuned narrow wedge issues and personal attacks as the campaign messaging.
Unless someone here lives in one of those counties, it can be safely assumed that everyone knows how their state will vote.
Most of us what's going on here is people expressing their fears about a particular candidate or their disdain at the system. I understand your fears about Trump - but except for his boorish behavior, I don't see him becoming the dictator he's been said to be (he wasn't last time). Same with Harris is not going to be standing on the podium while the Internationale plays.
But as long as the corporate parties know we will vote for them no matter what, they have no interest in changing or listening to us. I live in a blue PNW state that is solidly voting for Harris. I voted for Stein and hope others do too - not that it will change the results, but hopefully to have a distinct minority who show we're not buying their BS.
I live in Vermont. I EXPECT the state to go Blue. We are also Green. {That was not meant to be a pun, but it can be, if anybody wants it to be.}
Trump was not a dictator the last time because there were too many people standing in the way. Don’t kid yourself — there are people behind that incompetent blowhard now who have been encouraged to crawl out from under their rocks, and they will get him in place, and use him to their own ends … because he’s a fool and a tool, and I’m NOT really afraid of him. I’m afraid of the theocrats and white nationalists and the Federalists and the Heritage Society types who are behind him, using him … And then there’s always Vance in the wings …}.
You have a point, though {as does everyone who wants more than an entrenched two-party system — it’s another of my pet peeves that we TALK about enabling a system that demands more coalitions, but we don’t push it enough — I’d so love us to be parliamentary … sigh.} SO MUCH more needs doing to break the stranglehold of only two parties that get too entrenched …
And we already know why the Electoral College exists — a sop to the slave holders. Still around. Needs to be defanged, if not altogether scrapped. It’s not llike nobody is TALKING about it … More of us could get behind making THAT happen, especially if we have more people in the Senate and the House — OH, RIGHT. If people want to effect change, they can run for THOSE offices, too!
Whooda thunk it!
Pat, I don't think anyone here has attacked you for your vote.
But you have attacked me and others for our votes for Jill Stein.
Do you see a problem here? We respect your choice though disagreeing with your rationale.
You disagree with our rationale and disrespect our choice as "performative" or worse.
I think that's something you should ponder.
OH, really? Well, you should look back at the comments you and others make about what it means to vote for the Democratic ticket. Supporting genocide? Equating the choice between voting for the Republican or the Democrat as Hitler v Stalin?
Be serious, Bill.
If you don’t like my point — which is that a vote for Stein is more symbolic than other … that’s your right. But I think the conversation here has been similar on both ends.
Just the way *I* have seen it.
YMMD. {Apparently, it does.}
You obviously don't care about actual policies, since Harris is campaigning with Liz Cheney and is running on a Republican pro-war platform. So if you actually cared about policies, you would never vote for her, at least if your claims of wanting peace are true. Your vote for Harris is a knee-jerk "my team is always right", self-defeating exercise. You "win" the election, and your lose big time on what our country does with your tax dollars for the next 4 year (which will be to keep bombing and sanctioning other countries). You are the one who is deluding yourself.
Stein is giving people an option that doesn't include war. It is people like you who will make sure she can never win an election.
YOU obviously are mischaracterizing my position and things I said. Harris is NOT running on a Republican “pro-war”platform, but you would only know that if you actually listened to HER and not to people who are telling you what she is running on.
There’s no “if” about my commitment to decency in the world … “peace” being a word that means a lot more than just the absence of fighting …
You are here characterizing my vote as “knee-jerk” and ‘my team is always right” — that in no way describe me or my thoughts and actions. I wonder if Bill Astore will scold you for that.
Ms. Stein offers only the satisfaction of not voting for one of two other people, IF I thought I could not honestly vote for one of them. I can honestly and with confidence vote for Harris and expect to continue to express my opinions about her policies and to make my voice heard when I do’t like them.
If i throw my vote away and Trump gets in, THAT would be a disaster, and loss you describe.
We COULD have an absence of war is we surrender everytime a war-monger shows up, too. That’s not peace … that’s subugation. I don’t want war. Neithr do I want appeasement.
I want rational, worldwide cooperation to avoid massacres …
You have a nice day now …
Pat, I truly hope I'm not a "scold."
Anyhow, Harris is touting the Cheneys, she does support Ukraine's war against Russia, she does fully support Israel in whatever it does, and she says Iran is our gravest threat, so I assume she supports Israel's attack last night, and probably will support direct U.S. military attacks on Iran. That seems "pro-war" to me.
Stein talks a lot more about peace and much more against war than Kamala does.
I want peace and I'm against war so I find Stein's positions far more compelling than Kamala's. Just saying, hopefully without scolding.
And, lest I forget to mention!! … You term it “Ukraine’s war against Russia.”
WOW!!! Not Ukraine’s defense against Russian invasion? Your phrasing sounds like Ukraine was the aggressor instead of the defender. Maybe you do see it differently than I do.
Wow
I worry about our planet, and all the people on it …
This is not as simplistic as you make her out to be, but I too want a MORE full-throated statement that Bibi has been guilty of massacres, as well.
<https://theweek.com/politics/kamala-harris-israel-gaza-policy>
If Stein had a snowball’s chance in hell of keeping Trump out of office and making it to the White House, I MIGHT consider evaluating her positions… as she does not…as all she offers is aid to Trump … I cannot in good faith consider her an option.
And, after all these years, for reasons I have already given, I don’t trust her.
That’s what it looks like from here.
I agree with you entirely about Stein. Not a lot else though, but that's what makes America what it is. We are not forced to agree.
If our candidate fails, we just suck it up for 4 years like any adult can do. Life is not just politics!
Ooooohhhh, my, oh, my, oh, my! If THEIR candidate succeeds — and by “they,” I mean the people who want Trump — we are going to have to “suck it up” for a hell of a lot longer than four years … I’m not sure what kind of a mess they’ll make.
FOR INSTANCE, are we or are we not still “sucking it up” over the mess that Dubya {Cheney} made in the Middle East? They did have more than four years in office granted, but …
{And, yes, before anyone asks, I DO find it ironic and amazing that not only Dick’s daughter, but Dick himself does NOT want the Orange Disaster to ring in Project 2025. Dick seemed ready to do any damned thing he wanted to do, dreaming up justifications and work-arounds like WMD, the Yoo Torture Memo, and Guantanamo to pave his way. But apparently out-right-Fascism and further “suspending” aspects of the Constitution are a bridge too far for even him…. Who knew?}
I am not sanguine at all about the prospect of trying to sit out another Trump term … I think he can blow us all up in a few weeks. No telling WHAT he’d do this time around, once he get’s rid of all the rational people in Washington …
Yeeks.
Not including the fact that most of the stuff attributed to Marx was apparently written by Engels. Engels was a capitalist after all (he inherited a factory from his father) so they couldn't really have a capitalist arguing against capitalism. Marx on the other hand was a bum supported largely by Engels so that made it all right. A true hero for our time (sarc).
So, you dislike both candidates? So what?
Humans frequently have to decide between two negatives. That's life!
Unless, of course, you're so high-minded that you simply can't get any mud at all on your shoes. Well, bravo!
Just look at a few issues other than minimum wage, many are more important. Stretch that high-minded imagination a little bit and get in the reality game.
Perhaps Jill is as nice and generous a person as any politician can be. But, she's still just a very nice loser.
That's politics!
Politics: the dirtiest game in town..!
Regarding Jill Stein, I dropped off my wife's mail-in ballot at the early voting polling station. Outside there was a woman passing out leaflets for Harris/Democrats. I asked her if I could do as she was doing but for Jill Stein. She said, "you can, but I hope you won't" another example of the view that a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump.
Since I have been picketing for Stein in my city's downtown and also at the entrance to Northwestern University, it dawned on me that the early voting station is really the place to be, so starting today I will be there wearing a sign that says...
"WRITE-IN JILL STEIN
>End Support of Israel's Butchery
>Liberty and Justice FOR ALL
>Break the Grip of Ethnic Cleansing Zionism on our country
JILL STEIN"
I don't think I will get a gracious reception
How about the Prosecuter versus the Felon? Who never takes responsibility for anything he's ever done... Only in America looking pretty bleak. Can we get "Comet Atlas" to reverse direction!? Climate change happening a little too slow where you are? I'm still wearing my Cut-offs and short sleeve shirts in R.I. A mountainous sized "Dirty-Snowball" never looked so good. Seeking a friend for the end of the world? Planet extinction anyone? :/ :o) Our world is 4.56 Billion yrs. old. It sure has a knack for sticking around tho. 11 more days and a wake-up!
"Many people think I’m crazy to support someone like Jill Stein."
Why do you keep listening to any of those people? You keep wiggling that loose tooth. Take a relaxing vacation at some pleasnt location until after the election.
Sound advice!
Nobody has called Chase Oliver (the Libertarian candidate) anything bad. Maybe I'll vote for him.
I'm sure we can come up with something "bad" about him! :-)
I just read that he's a restaurateur. Egads. Oh wait. That's good.
Wow! A lot to think about here. Uncanny similarities . . .
https://babylonbee.com/news/9-ways-trump-is-exactly-like-hitler
Did Hitler ever work at McDonald's?
Harris explains why Trump didn't turn into Hitler his first term. Warning, satire. https://babylonbee.com/news/democrats-explain-trump-was-going-to-be-hitler-during-his-first-term-but-he-forgot
The Babylon Bee has the last word: https://babylonbee.com/news/9-ways-trump-is-exactly-like-hitler
You, too, can hire a generic protest. The people are told to move their mouths like they are shouting but to remain silent. They hold up green cards that can be filled in digitally. Work your way through college! https://vimeo.com/735616690
"She celebrates her belief in capitalism. Typical Marxist behavior."
Points for snark, Bill.
I wrote it just for you, Denise. :-)