"Are you listening, Democrats?" Well, that's an easy question to answer. They quit listening years ago. And their cohort of brainwashed are just apoplectic about CNN hosting a Trump town hall. It says how little confidence (or support) they actually have for "their" candidate when they tremble in fear from one televised town hall.
The way you end a war is to get all parties to agree to a ceasefire and to come to the negotiating table... NOT!
NOT, at least in this case when talking about UKRAINE!
The way you get this WAR to END is to ADVOCATE for NEGOTIATION which we have not done since the start of this conflict. If we gradually quit supplying Ukraine with every damned means of death that they ask for and at the same time pressure Zelensky to NEGOTIATE; the war should end in short order. IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT!
There are way too many war profiteers in this country who want to see this crap going on forever. This includes the Pentagon and MANY politicians who are getting their "CUT".
The problem, Jerry, is that when sensible people say this, the immediate riposte is: So you want Putin to win? So you want Putin to gain territory and to go unpunished for his war crimes?
That's the typical reply. Of course, those who argue this way are basically arguing for more weapons, more killing, more war, until a decisive "win" by Ukraine, which they believe is just around the corner -- or do they see a light at the end of the tunnel?
The way you end a war is to get all parties to agree to a ceasefire and to come to the negotiating table with the blessing of all the governments of the world, and to make an honest and determined effort to hammer out an equitable peace. It's been done that way for a while. Who wins? Everyone.
Even if he is completely sincere he would never be able to end the war, the war party is too deeply entrenched for any mere President to change American policy, and significant change is never going to come from Washington. It will have to come from resistance from beyond the swamp. Legislation like Defend the Guard will be a stumbling block in the march to war.
I don't think for a nanosecond that TFG actually meant what he said. His comment was a calculated cop-out to avoid coming down on either side. He probably doesn't even know (or care about) the details of what's going on in Ukraine. In the godawful event that he were re-elected, he'd do whatever the corporate war profiteers told him to do.
The way I see it Denise is that GW and Obama were also serial liars. And now demented Biden. And ALL warmongers and war profiteers to boot.
Trump is no different in the lying Department, but with him you get a chance, no matter how slim, of ending these forever wars.
With the Democrats, unless its RFK Jr., and they won't "allow" that, you get zero chance.
In his first term, as a rookie, Trump said " We are going to end these wars".
And they, you know who "they" are, said "Oh, no we are not".
And in his insecurity as a newbie, and not surrounding himself with the right people, he made the mistake of not immediately beginning firing people - starting with the warmonger Victoria Nuland.
If the vote is not rigged again, and he is re-elected, and gets to serve his second term, will he have learned his lesson, and have more of a mandate, and have some balls this time to answer "Oh, YES we are!" And clean house.
Anti Trumpers say he is beholden to the MIC - we will see. But as I said, with the Democrats there is zero chance.
I don't disagree about the Dems, Dennis, but as long as there's money to be made, the GOP isn't go to stop escalations, either. After all, they always vote to increase the military budget.
Thinking about it Denise, why can't he increase the military budget, as obscene as that is, but under the guise of strengthening our DEFENSIVE position (Fortress America*), AND at the same time end the foreign wars and bring ALL troops home! Surely these two are not incompatible!
The trick is to end this anti-China hysteria, and MYOB with Taiwan. That's were the next jumping off point for the forever war is eh? And where it can be stopped dead in its tracks. I mean, who else are we going to attack? Iran, Nth Korea - maybe I'm naive! Requiring a new foreign policy starting with showing the warmonger Victoria Nuland and the neo-cons in the State Department the door!
Theoretically, it would be possible to keep dumping billions into the military and call it defense, sure. That's essentially what the Pentagon says it's doing now. But there's zero chance all that hardware and ships and planes isn't going to be used for something. Between 2013 and 2017, for instance, U.S. troops saw action in 13 African countries, and almost no one knows about it:
It would be a miracle if this country brought all the troops home and de-escalated across the board, especially with China. But it's not gonna happen in the foreseeable future, no matter which current political leader sits in the Oval Office. To shift the paradigm, it will take someone young, entirely new, not bought by anyone, and willing to risk his/her life to bring peace. And that person will have to have accomplished a sea change across the country before taking office.
I wasn't complete enough in my comment. The sea change to which I referred would obviously involve a complete 180 of the American mindset, as you point out, jg.
If Trump is a tool of the war profiteers it's not obvious why he would cut himself off from their campaign contributions with this stance. Perhaps the assumption is incorrect.
I don't believe his stance was in any way anti-war. It was a purposefully vague statement about stopping the killing, a throwaway answer that could mean anything. He didn't, for instance, make a firm, specific commitment to support peace negotiations. TFG isn't any less a corporate tool than anyone else in D.C.
Denise, you know I am more optimistic than you here.
I might be drinking the Trump KOOLAID, but he says he can stop the killing in 24-hrs!
And I believe with his more diplomatic ties with Xi, and Putin they can get an immediate ceasefire. Indeed stopping the killing and then get peace negotiations going. No more weapons to Zelensky. Oh dear - were we taking about the MIC?
Russia moved to occupy Crimea during the Obama years, other Ukraine oblasts during the Biden years. In between, during the Trump years, nothing. That says something. Although the hawks will deny it and say that only they can manage relations with Russia. Their score so far: hundreds of thousands killed, billions if not trillions in destruction and weapons used, sanctions damaged the economies of Europe, the US, and Russia, as well as the economies of the global south, who are moving away from us. Oh but Trump doesn't know what he's doing (sarc).
Um....from where I sit you'd have to be smokin' some bodacious weed to believe that TFG can leverage any relationship to bring about peace. I very much doubt any foreign leader takes him seriously.
The problem is, by the time Trump might end up in position to do anything about it, Putin will already finish demilitarizing Ukraine by depopulating it to a point where no amount of money and military aid might help the West to re-establish its "anti-Russia" project.
Trump's answer about stopping the killing went over the heads of US and NATO officials and their obedient WH spokespeople in the "press". They are so ensconced in their own tribal/team thinking that they can't even fathom what someone is saying when they urge an end to the killing on both sides. I should note it was the only sensible answer Trump gave, all his other answers were bonkers.
However, I do not see a stalemate on the horizon, I see a slow, calculated grind where the Ukrainian army is decimated over the next year or two, and the logistical nightmare of shipping armaments from NATO and the US become untenable over time, ensuring Ukraine's ultimate defeat on the battlefield. There will be no negotiations with the likes of the US, who has made it clear that they do not negotiate in good faith. Any "negotiations" would simply be another stall for time and resupply, and Russia knows this.
Of course the Democrats are not listening, as almost all of them have joined the neocon cult of American Exceptionalism, a belief in the moral superiority of the USA and the indispensable role the US has in "spreading freedom and democracy" around the globe. These neocon fanatics are missionaries in all but name. So what if countries are destroyed and people die and suffer---it's all worth it, just as Madeline Albright boasted. Plus, the $$$ being made from forever and now eternal wars is simply too good to pass up. The words peace and diplomacy have been pretty much expunged. Anyone who dares to call for either is condemned and vilified as a Putin stooge. So, how did we get here? Harper's Magazine has an excellent article spelling out the history behind the tragedy in Ukraine. Unfortunately, the neocon fanatics in DC and NATO aren't interested in history or facts. Missionary zealots never are.
To everybody who thinks that Putin is a “war criminal” for his activity in Ukraine: Look in the mirror, America. And remember that payback is a bitch… :
NEW RESEARCH ESTIMATES UP TO 3.7 MILLION INDIRECT DEATHS CAUSED BY REVERBERATING IMPACTS OF WAR IN IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN AND ELSEWHERE
War’s destruction of economies, public services, and the environment leads to deaths that occur long after bombs drop and grow in scale over time, according to a new report from the Costs of War project at Brown University’s Watson Institute.
A review of the latest research examines the significant “causal pathways” that have led to an estimated 3.6-3.7 million indirect deaths in post-9/11 war zones. Factoring in Costs of War estimates of direct deaths of between 906,000 – 937,000 people brings the total of estimated deaths to at least 4.5-4.6 million and counting.
This research sheds new light on the devastating indirect toll of war on human health in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, Libya and Somalia, countries which have experienced the most violent wars in which the U.S. has been involved in the name of counterterrorism since 2001. Many warring parties and many intensifying factors have contributed to these deaths and the report does not attribute direct responsibility to any single combatant, cause, or time period.
The report outlines the following "causal pathways" — an epidemiological term for a long chain of war’s health consequences:
~ Economic collapse, loss of livelihood and food insecurity;
~ Destruction of public services and health infrastructure;
~ Environmental contamination;
~ Reverberating trauma and violence; and
~ Forced displacement.
“In a place like Afghanistan, the pressing question is whether any death can today be considered unrelated to war,” says Stephanie Savell, Costs of War co-director and author of the report. “Wars often kill far more people indirectly than in direct combat, particularly young children.”
If America’s Ruling Political Class [RPC] had not wanted Trump in the Oval Office, he would have never gotten there.
It apparently thought that it could accomplish more with The Donald in the White House than with The Hillary; and its investment in him proved very fruitful.
Can anybody name even one element of America's corporatist NeoFascist Deep State ~ the military-industrial-congressional complex, the banking-finance-printing press web, the techno-infotainment-education matrix, the petro-food-pharmo and guns-drugs-prison cartels, the medical-legal-insurance-cabals, and the surveillance-secrecy-security panopticon ~ that was not better off after Trump’s reign than it was after Obama’s? Even one?
And then it determined that it could accomplish even more with Comatose Joe on the throne than with POTUS Maxximmuss XLV; particularly in the realm of taking the American People from mere disagreement and division to fragmentation on the verge of disintegration.
And once again, their investment was spot on. Again, can anybody name one element of that corporatist, NeoFascist Deep State that isn’t better off now with Biden than it was when Trump was replaced?
That's why we like him. He has the guts to take on the vested interests. Taking on the Blob would be a gutsy move considering they helped bring him down in 2020.
"Are you listening, Democrats?" Well, that's an easy question to answer. They quit listening years ago. And their cohort of brainwashed are just apoplectic about CNN hosting a Trump town hall. It says how little confidence (or support) they actually have for "their" candidate when they tremble in fear from one televised town hall.
The way you end a war is to get all parties to agree to a ceasefire and to come to the negotiating table... NOT!
NOT, at least in this case when talking about UKRAINE!
The way you get this WAR to END is to ADVOCATE for NEGOTIATION which we have not done since the start of this conflict. If we gradually quit supplying Ukraine with every damned means of death that they ask for and at the same time pressure Zelensky to NEGOTIATE; the war should end in short order. IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT!
There are way too many war profiteers in this country who want to see this crap going on forever. This includes the Pentagon and MANY politicians who are getting their "CUT".
The problem, Jerry, is that when sensible people say this, the immediate riposte is: So you want Putin to win? So you want Putin to gain territory and to go unpunished for his war crimes?
That's the typical reply. Of course, those who argue this way are basically arguing for more weapons, more killing, more war, until a decisive "win" by Ukraine, which they believe is just around the corner -- or do they see a light at the end of the tunnel?
VERY TRUE, Bill.
What the American public does not hear anything about is NATO's expansion and OUR ROLE in bringing about this current terrible situation.
The way you end a war is to get all parties to agree to a ceasefire and to come to the negotiating table with the blessing of all the governments of the world, and to make an honest and determined effort to hammer out an equitable peace. It's been done that way for a while. Who wins? Everyone.
Even if he is completely sincere he would never be able to end the war, the war party is too deeply entrenched for any mere President to change American policy, and significant change is never going to come from Washington. It will have to come from resistance from beyond the swamp. Legislation like Defend the Guard will be a stumbling block in the march to war.
https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/whats-our-best-bet-in-2024/
I don't think for a nanosecond that TFG actually meant what he said. His comment was a calculated cop-out to avoid coming down on either side. He probably doesn't even know (or care about) the details of what's going on in Ukraine. In the godawful event that he were re-elected, he'd do whatever the corporate war profiteers told him to do.
The way I see it Denise is that GW and Obama were also serial liars. And now demented Biden. And ALL warmongers and war profiteers to boot.
Trump is no different in the lying Department, but with him you get a chance, no matter how slim, of ending these forever wars.
With the Democrats, unless its RFK Jr., and they won't "allow" that, you get zero chance.
In his first term, as a rookie, Trump said " We are going to end these wars".
And they, you know who "they" are, said "Oh, no we are not".
And in his insecurity as a newbie, and not surrounding himself with the right people, he made the mistake of not immediately beginning firing people - starting with the warmonger Victoria Nuland.
If the vote is not rigged again, and he is re-elected, and gets to serve his second term, will he have learned his lesson, and have more of a mandate, and have some balls this time to answer "Oh, YES we are!" And clean house.
Anti Trumpers say he is beholden to the MIC - we will see. But as I said, with the Democrats there is zero chance.
I don't disagree about the Dems, Dennis, but as long as there's money to be made, the GOP isn't go to stop escalations, either. After all, they always vote to increase the military budget.
Thinking about it Denise, why can't he increase the military budget, as obscene as that is, but under the guise of strengthening our DEFENSIVE position (Fortress America*), AND at the same time end the foreign wars and bring ALL troops home! Surely these two are not incompatible!
The trick is to end this anti-China hysteria, and MYOB with Taiwan. That's were the next jumping off point for the forever war is eh? And where it can be stopped dead in its tracks. I mean, who else are we going to attack? Iran, Nth Korea - maybe I'm naive! Requiring a new foreign policy starting with showing the warmonger Victoria Nuland and the neo-cons in the State Department the door!
* https://networks.h-net.org/node/28443/reviews/2590168/mittelstadt-may-fortress-america-how-we-embraced-fear-and-abandoned
Theoretically, it would be possible to keep dumping billions into the military and call it defense, sure. That's essentially what the Pentagon says it's doing now. But there's zero chance all that hardware and ships and planes isn't going to be used for something. Between 2013 and 2017, for instance, U.S. troops saw action in 13 African countries, and almost no one knows about it:
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/us-military-africa-command/
It would be a miracle if this country brought all the troops home and de-escalated across the board, especially with China. But it's not gonna happen in the foreseeable future, no matter which current political leader sits in the Oval Office. To shift the paradigm, it will take someone young, entirely new, not bought by anyone, and willing to risk his/her life to bring peace. And that person will have to have accomplished a sea change across the country before taking office.
That "paradigm shift" You are calling for, Denise, isn't going to happen because some bright and shiny new face suddenly appears on the scene.
That paradigm shift will Only happen when a critical mass of America's Citizen-Tax Payers DEMAND that it happen.
And that ain't gonna happen any time soon.
I wasn't complete enough in my comment. The sea change to which I referred would obviously involve a complete 180 of the American mindset, as you point out, jg.
i'm curious, Dennis: Do You think Trump had some sort of a "mandate" from the American people when he assumed the throne in 2017?
And if he did have a "mandate" then, does that mean that Biden had a "mandate" when he was shuffled in in 2021?
If Trump is a tool of the war profiteers it's not obvious why he would cut himself off from their campaign contributions with this stance. Perhaps the assumption is incorrect.
I don't believe his stance was in any way anti-war. It was a purposefully vague statement about stopping the killing, a throwaway answer that could mean anything. He didn't, for instance, make a firm, specific commitment to support peace negotiations. TFG isn't any less a corporate tool than anyone else in D.C.
Trump is not a doctrinaire antiwar candidate. Nor is he a pro-war one. Again, I give him credit for saying he wants to stop the killing in Ukraine.
Denise, you know I am more optimistic than you here.
I might be drinking the Trump KOOLAID, but he says he can stop the killing in 24-hrs!
And I believe with his more diplomatic ties with Xi, and Putin they can get an immediate ceasefire. Indeed stopping the killing and then get peace negotiations going. No more weapons to Zelensky. Oh dear - were we taking about the MIC?
Russia moved to occupy Crimea during the Obama years, other Ukraine oblasts during the Biden years. In between, during the Trump years, nothing. That says something. Although the hawks will deny it and say that only they can manage relations with Russia. Their score so far: hundreds of thousands killed, billions if not trillions in destruction and weapons used, sanctions damaged the economies of Europe, the US, and Russia, as well as the economies of the global south, who are moving away from us. Oh but Trump doesn't know what he's doing (sarc).
Um....from where I sit you'd have to be smokin' some bodacious weed to believe that TFG can leverage any relationship to bring about peace. I very much doubt any foreign leader takes him seriously.
ukraine 'winning' would destabilize the balance of terror forming ion the new cold war.
nato nuclear trip within 400 klicks of moscow puts the world back to 1985 when intermediate range nukes bristled all over europe!
the neocon world dominion dream has not been possible since the us wasted a couple of trillion in syraqistan.
i lost all interest in desantis when he backed down from an 'immediate peace is the only answer' to the new cold war.
trump did run the arm up to kiev while president. what did he think was going to happen?
The problem is, by the time Trump might end up in position to do anything about it, Putin will already finish demilitarizing Ukraine by depopulating it to a point where no amount of money and military aid might help the West to re-establish its "anti-Russia" project.
Congratulations!
Trump's answer about stopping the killing went over the heads of US and NATO officials and their obedient WH spokespeople in the "press". They are so ensconced in their own tribal/team thinking that they can't even fathom what someone is saying when they urge an end to the killing on both sides. I should note it was the only sensible answer Trump gave, all his other answers were bonkers.
However, I do not see a stalemate on the horizon, I see a slow, calculated grind where the Ukrainian army is decimated over the next year or two, and the logistical nightmare of shipping armaments from NATO and the US become untenable over time, ensuring Ukraine's ultimate defeat on the battlefield. There will be no negotiations with the likes of the US, who has made it clear that they do not negotiate in good faith. Any "negotiations" would simply be another stall for time and resupply, and Russia knows this.
Of course the Democrats are not listening, as almost all of them have joined the neocon cult of American Exceptionalism, a belief in the moral superiority of the USA and the indispensable role the US has in "spreading freedom and democracy" around the globe. These neocon fanatics are missionaries in all but name. So what if countries are destroyed and people die and suffer---it's all worth it, just as Madeline Albright boasted. Plus, the $$$ being made from forever and now eternal wars is simply too good to pass up. The words peace and diplomacy have been pretty much expunged. Anyone who dares to call for either is condemned and vilified as a Putin stooge. So, how did we get here? Harper's Magazine has an excellent article spelling out the history behind the tragedy in Ukraine. Unfortunately, the neocon fanatics in DC and NATO aren't interested in history or facts. Missionary zealots never are.
https://harpers.org/archive/2023/06/why-are-we-in-ukraine/
To everybody who thinks that Putin is a “war criminal” for his activity in Ukraine: Look in the mirror, America. And remember that payback is a bitch… :
NEW RESEARCH ESTIMATES UP TO 3.7 MILLION INDIRECT DEATHS CAUSED BY REVERBERATING IMPACTS OF WAR IN IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN AND ELSEWHERE
War’s destruction of economies, public services, and the environment leads to deaths that occur long after bombs drop and grow in scale over time, according to a new report from the Costs of War project at Brown University’s Watson Institute.
A review of the latest research examines the significant “causal pathways” that have led to an estimated 3.6-3.7 million indirect deaths in post-9/11 war zones. Factoring in Costs of War estimates of direct deaths of between 906,000 – 937,000 people brings the total of estimated deaths to at least 4.5-4.6 million and counting.
This research sheds new light on the devastating indirect toll of war on human health in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, Libya and Somalia, countries which have experienced the most violent wars in which the U.S. has been involved in the name of counterterrorism since 2001. Many warring parties and many intensifying factors have contributed to these deaths and the report does not attribute direct responsibility to any single combatant, cause, or time period.
The report outlines the following "causal pathways" — an epidemiological term for a long chain of war’s health consequences:
~ Economic collapse, loss of livelihood and food insecurity;
~ Destruction of public services and health infrastructure;
~ Environmental contamination;
~ Reverberating trauma and violence; and
~ Forced displacement.
“In a place like Afghanistan, the pressing question is whether any death can today be considered unrelated to war,” says Stephanie Savell, Costs of War co-director and author of the report. “Wars often kill far more people indirectly than in direct combat, particularly young children.”
Full Report at https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/2023/IndirectDeaths
I saw the ad you co-signed in today’s New York Times. Well done!
Thank you!
If America’s Ruling Political Class [RPC] had not wanted Trump in the Oval Office, he would have never gotten there.
It apparently thought that it could accomplish more with The Donald in the White House than with The Hillary; and its investment in him proved very fruitful.
Can anybody name even one element of America's corporatist NeoFascist Deep State ~ the military-industrial-congressional complex, the banking-finance-printing press web, the techno-infotainment-education matrix, the petro-food-pharmo and guns-drugs-prison cartels, the medical-legal-insurance-cabals, and the surveillance-secrecy-security panopticon ~ that was not better off after Trump’s reign than it was after Obama’s? Even one?
And then it determined that it could accomplish even more with Comatose Joe on the throne than with POTUS Maxximmuss XLV; particularly in the realm of taking the American People from mere disagreement and division to fragmentation on the verge of disintegration.
And once again, their investment was spot on. Again, can anybody name one element of that corporatist, NeoFascist Deep State that isn’t better off now with Biden than it was when Trump was replaced?
That's why we like him. He has the guts to take on the vested interests. Taking on the Blob would be a gutsy move considering they helped bring him down in 2020.
I just don't think Trump has consistency of purpose, Alex. He's too wrapped up in himself, and open to being played by those who flatter him.
I wish it weren't so ...