Just a very old note from Thucydides on language in time of war:
So revolutions broke out in city after city, and in places where the revolutions occurred late the knowledge of what had happened in previously in other places caused still new extravagances of revolutionary zeal, expressed by an elaboration on the methods of seizing power and by unheard-of atrocities in revenge. To fit in with the change of events, words, too, had to change their usual meanings. What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defence. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted, and anyone who objected to them became a suspect. To plot successfully was a sign of intelligence, but it was still cleverer to see that a plot was hatching.
Thucydides, Book 3 Chapter 82. I recommend the Hobbes translation, which has a more forceful version of the passage. Here is the beginning bit of it:
"But war, taking away the affluence of daily necessities, is a most violent master, and conformeth most men's passions to the present occasion. The cities, being therefore ow in sedition, and those who fell into it later having heard what had been done in the former, they far exceedeth the same, both in newness and in conceit, both for the art of assailing and in the strangeness of their revenges. The received value of names imposed for signification of things, was changed into arbitrary. For inconsiderate boldness, was counted true-hearted manliness: provident deliberation, a handsome fear: modesty, the cloak of cowardice..."
Thank you. Yes, your 1st translation matches my edition of Thucydides as translated by Rex Warner. That of Hobbes is more pungent but I think more difficult for modern readers.
Usually I prefer older translations, e.g. the King James Bible is so much better than the NIV and similar "modern" translations. Often, all the poetry, and much of the feeling, is obliterated in "modern" translations, I guess in the name of clarity and simplicity. Yuck.
We see ourselves as unique in all of history - we make and shape the world according to the wishes of imperial Washington D.C. But if a Thucydides, Herodotus - or a Homer could see the modern world, they likely could only shake their heads and say 'what fools, they learned nothing.'
This was a joy to read, not least of all because when I was an undergraduate senior, I wrote a paper on Newspeak in an introductory class in linguistics. So, thank you for letting me remember that paper, something I thought I had forgotten about. 😁
The Movie Version of the Book, and Richard Burtons final movie "1984"where I felt he did a fine performance and respectable piece of acting as the torturer O'Brien. The movie is very grim, but I think it captured the book perfectly... It might make cool viewing instead of really scary fare like George C. Scotts Classic "The Changeling" for your Halloween. :/ :o)
In homage to Winston-- We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. we have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing...! :/ :o)
There are good people who do good things, and there are evil people who do evil things, but for a good person to do evil things that takes faith and religion.
Religion is the permission slip to set aside truthful thought, and faith is the deliberate refusal to think critically and the glorification of willful ignorance that follows.
The mass murderer who is adored by the US Congress, Bibi Netanyahu, has FAITH that killing each other to decide who has the best imaginary friend is the way to go.
Netanyahu invoked the Biblical reference with the Amalek rhetoric for a blatant call to genocide, "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." 1 Samuel 15:3.
This Astrophysicist & Cornell Professor won a Pulitzer Prize for "The Dragons of Eden" His book on the Evolution of Human Intelligence!!! I give you Carl Sagan...
"There are good people who do good things, and there are evil people who do evil things, but for a good person to do evil things that takes faith and religion."
In the REALITIES of THIS MATERIAL WORLD TODAY, The Cult of Trump's Personality having an unquestioning Religious FAITH he is God's Chosen One, fit your projection to a T, as in Truth!
Netanyahu is a Man. He is not God, and as you rightly call to our attention, his invoking Amalek in the name of God of the Jewish Holy Bible in that video you posted, we are 100% in agreement. He justifies it in the name of his God from the Bible, while I oppose it by the God and Father of Jesus Christ the Jew as an EVIL display of Leadership vis a vis Palestinians in Gaza.
Not only that, but Israeli President Isaac Herzog said, as far as the military is concerned, there is little difference between Gaza’s civilian population and Hamas, which has governed the besieged territory since 2007."
As I can read, here is the President and Prime Minister of Israel singing from the same hymn book. A clear call for Genocide in Israel while absolving the IDF and the Israeli people of any guilt in betraying the Jewish value on "the Sanctity of Life" Jewish life that is.
The whole State of Israel is living a mirage like existence as depicted in the 2023 Oscar winner, The Interest Zone. They had everything in happy oblivion in their house and beautiful garden next to the Wall blind and oblivious to what's going on on the other side of the Wall.
The FACTS are Dennis, you blame God for what Netanyahu is doing to women and children in Gaza.
There is ONE Man who could stop it, the President of the United States. He/She could stop the flow of weapons and cash going to Israel.
Can't you put equal blame on the President, especially because the US Deep State believes God gave the World to the US to rule over? You point out the complicity of the US Congress with War Criminal Netanyahu, but your anger is reserved only for God who you can't see, and let those you can see off the hook.
Obviously you missed Trump saying he'll give Israel whatever it needs to "finish the job" in Gaza and with Iran. The same Trump you IDOLIZE but conveniently overlook his Public statements as meaningless and irrelevant !
Presented on British TV in 1954, starring Peter Cushing. First feature film version appeared in 1956, starring Edmond O'Brien. Saw that on the CBS afternoon movie (WBBM, channel 2, Chicago) as a 5-year-old. Quite an experience.
35-years of my dedication to building American Bridges, Ports, Roads, Docks, Sewage plants, Hospitals and Military facilities ~ adds up to me being considered "garbage" by the sitting Democratic President & Commander in Chief of the USA.
The Democrats can kiss my arse!
TRUMP/VANCE/RFK Jr/GABBARD 2024 ~ The ONLY vote for REAL Americans.
Orwell might be the most quoted writer of our times. We can easily get lost in the dystopian nature of our times and not see hopeful signs-ways out. Genocide Joe has been doing something remarkably good and significant. His anti-trust initiatives frighten the likes of Musk, Bezos and Mark Cuban Bloomberg, Soros. During the last election before agreeing to support Biden, Bernie had Biden sign an agreement to go after monopolists. Biden lived up that that agreement. As Matt Stroller points out "“Before the Biden Administration, blocking a million-dollar deal in court would be a legacy- defining case for an FTC Chair or Anti-Trust Division Chief but for Lina Khan it’s just another Thursday.” Much of our way out of our dystopian times is breaking up grotesquely concentrated wealth. Bernie was sorry to see Biden step aside because he feared Kamala would be more like Bill Clinton and Obama and ignore anti-trust laws. We do not know if Kamala will end Bidens initiative. There is some hope for less dystopian times with Kamala. But we know for certain that Trump will not go after corrupt business deals, he is a corrupt business deal.
Cornel West in his idealism criticized Bernie for caving in and supporting Biden. But this was not the case. Bernie influenced Biden's domestic policies. It's a shame Bernie could not influence Biden's genocidal foreign policy.
It's a crying shame, no, it is deeply disturbing that the likes of Bernie could not influence Biden's genocidal foreign policy. Concentrated wealth-the Israel Lobby- arms manufactures profiting on Wall Street, the entire military industry- the grotesque misallocation of the nation's wealth and power in America has everything to do with what’s happening in Gaza and Lebanon. But Jeffery Sachs will tell you that John Kennedy tried to stand up to that concentrated wealth based on making war and was most likely shot for it. War needs enemies and taking of peace in not profitable.
Moved by thoughts of Orwell's 1984, I registered and ran as an Independent Candidate for the Seat of Ottawa Centre in the Parliament of Canada in the Federal Election of 1984.
Having no money, organization or Volunteers, I didn't stand a chance, but it is entered into the Public record.
Even the campaign poster I distributed portended to the debate in this US Election 2024 these 2 Generations later.
One year ago Netanyahu invoked the Biblical reference with the Amalek rhetoric for a blatant call to genocide, "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." 1 Samuel 15:3.
And now one year later ~ NOT ONE GOD has lifted a finger to stop the genocide.
100,000 + slaughtered and their ox and sheep, camel and donkey. And their house, electricity, drinking water & sewage facilities and hospitals destroyed.
Because they had the audacity to pray to a different GOD!
I literally scream watching Al Jazeera TV watching these young kids with both legs amputated and dying a horrible death for lack of antibiotic medicine and proper food, and saying "GOD will save me!" Thinking of my beautiful young daughters at that age. Talk about hell!
The Christian faithful insist EVERYTHING happens according to God's PLAN.
But when SOMETHING tragic happens, the Christian says God gives us FREE WILL.
The age-old trick of constantly moving the goalposts. Total bullshit!
We are not buying this bullshit anymore Ray!
If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
If he is able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
If he is both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
If he is neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Christopher Hitchens was right ~ "RELIGION poisons everything!"
THERE IS NO GOD. Let alone an all-powerful, benevolent loving one. Its bullshit!
And you have the balls, Ray, to continue to flood this site with your Biblical religious nonsense comments singing the praise of an imaginary GOD ~ not matter the subject. GMAFB
You have disqualified yourself from anybody giving a shit about what you did in 1984.
When I listen to Carl Sagan its more "inspiring" than any "Sermon" I've ever heard in any Church!!! We are the Universe staring back at itself in Wonder...Profound enough for me.
I can't take it as well Dennis. Religious Freaks... Why does there have to be a point!? There isn't a point or purpose to our existence, over 3.8 billion years of evolution the fact that we exist at all is worth "celebrating." Find your own purpose if you must . Down in the deep primordial oceans we emerged from single cell organisms, and before that probably chemical reactions reactions from hydro-thermal vents in the deep primordial oceans of ancient Earth ocean beds. Now we can have conversations where we can sit and think among the Stars, talk about the Stars and have conversations like this...! Now can't we just leave it at this??? Isn't that enough!!!???
But all those levels Humans had to go thru once we arrived on the scene to get to being able to sit, think, and Chat among the Stars weren't enough at that time, either.
I like to think the publivk at large isore educated than in Orwellian times and as such are capably of assessing the news of the day with a skektical eye. At least those that can escape the MSM box of deception.
Just a very old note from Thucydides on language in time of war:
So revolutions broke out in city after city, and in places where the revolutions occurred late the knowledge of what had happened in previously in other places caused still new extravagances of revolutionary zeal, expressed by an elaboration on the methods of seizing power and by unheard-of atrocities in revenge. To fit in with the change of events, words, too, had to change their usual meanings. What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defence. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted, and anyone who objected to them became a suspect. To plot successfully was a sign of intelligence, but it was still cleverer to see that a plot was hatching.
cheers,
beth
Many thanks, Beth. Do you have the chapter/verse of this? I wanted to look it up in my copy.
Dear Bill;
Thucydides, Book 3 Chapter 82. I recommend the Hobbes translation, which has a more forceful version of the passage. Here is the beginning bit of it:
"But war, taking away the affluence of daily necessities, is a most violent master, and conformeth most men's passions to the present occasion. The cities, being therefore ow in sedition, and those who fell into it later having heard what had been done in the former, they far exceedeth the same, both in newness and in conceit, both for the art of assailing and in the strangeness of their revenges. The received value of names imposed for signification of things, was changed into arbitrary. For inconsiderate boldness, was counted true-hearted manliness: provident deliberation, a handsome fear: modesty, the cloak of cowardice..."
The translation I first sent was from an interesting article https://minervawisdom.com/2019/02/25/corruption-of-language-and-morality-in-history-of-the-peloponnesian-war/
beth
Thank you. Yes, your 1st translation matches my edition of Thucydides as translated by Rex Warner. That of Hobbes is more pungent but I think more difficult for modern readers.
Usually I prefer older translations, e.g. the King James Bible is so much better than the NIV and similar "modern" translations. Often, all the poetry, and much of the feeling, is obliterated in "modern" translations, I guess in the name of clarity and simplicity. Yuck.
amen!!
We see ourselves as unique in all of history - we make and shape the world according to the wishes of imperial Washington D.C. But if a Thucydides, Herodotus - or a Homer could see the modern world, they likely could only shake their heads and say 'what fools, they learned nothing.'
This was a joy to read, not least of all because when I was an undergraduate senior, I wrote a paper on Newspeak in an introductory class in linguistics. So, thank you for letting me remember that paper, something I thought I had forgotten about. 😁
The Movie Version of the Book, and Richard Burtons final movie "1984"where I felt he did a fine performance and respectable piece of acting as the torturer O'Brien. The movie is very grim, but I think it captured the book perfectly... It might make cool viewing instead of really scary fare like George C. Scotts Classic "The Changeling" for your Halloween. :/ :o)
And John Hurt was perfect as Winston Smith in the movie with Burton; he has that gaunt haunted look.
In homage to Winston-- We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. we have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing...! :/ :o)
So apt describing this Generation!
In other words, if one has enough Faith, a recurring theme in the Book, anyone can do anything with nothing!
There are good people who do good things, and there are evil people who do evil things, but for a good person to do evil things that takes faith and religion.
Religion is the permission slip to set aside truthful thought, and faith is the deliberate refusal to think critically and the glorification of willful ignorance that follows.
The mass murderer who is adored by the US Congress, Bibi Netanyahu, has FAITH that killing each other to decide who has the best imaginary friend is the way to go.
Netanyahu invoked the Biblical reference with the Amalek rhetoric for a blatant call to genocide, "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." 1 Samuel 15:3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5LmB6uup3o
"It's the Lords will to save the baby, but in case the baby is not saved, it was the Lords will the baby was supposed to die"
Baby lives ~ God is amazing, and prayer works.
Baby dies ~ it was God's will and we aren't meant to know or understand the reasons these things happen. It's in accordance with his plan.
So, what purpose does prayer have?
This surely and precisely sums up the Christianity hoax, doesn't it?
GOD CAN'T LOSE!
This Astrophysicist & Cornell Professor won a Pulitzer Prize for "The Dragons of Eden" His book on the Evolution of Human Intelligence!!! I give you Carl Sagan...
"There are good people who do good things, and there are evil people who do evil things, but for a good person to do evil things that takes faith and religion."
In the REALITIES of THIS MATERIAL WORLD TODAY, The Cult of Trump's Personality having an unquestioning Religious FAITH he is God's Chosen One, fit your projection to a T, as in Truth!
Netanyahu is a Man. He is not God, and as you rightly call to our attention, his invoking Amalek in the name of God of the Jewish Holy Bible in that video you posted, we are 100% in agreement. He justifies it in the name of his God from the Bible, while I oppose it by the God and Father of Jesus Christ the Jew as an EVIL display of Leadership vis a vis Palestinians in Gaza.
Not only that, but Israeli President Isaac Herzog said, as far as the military is concerned, there is little difference between Gaza’s civilian population and Hamas, which has governed the besieged territory since 2007."
As I can read, here is the President and Prime Minister of Israel singing from the same hymn book. A clear call for Genocide in Israel while absolving the IDF and the Israeli people of any guilt in betraying the Jewish value on "the Sanctity of Life" Jewish life that is.
The whole State of Israel is living a mirage like existence as depicted in the 2023 Oscar winner, The Interest Zone. They had everything in happy oblivion in their house and beautiful garden next to the Wall blind and oblivious to what's going on on the other side of the Wall.
The FACTS are Dennis, you blame God for what Netanyahu is doing to women and children in Gaza.
There is ONE Man who could stop it, the President of the United States. He/She could stop the flow of weapons and cash going to Israel.
Can't you put equal blame on the President, especially because the US Deep State believes God gave the World to the US to rule over? You point out the complicity of the US Congress with War Criminal Netanyahu, but your anger is reserved only for God who you can't see, and let those you can see off the hook.
Obviously you missed Trump saying he'll give Israel whatever it needs to "finish the job" in Gaza and with Iran. The same Trump you IDOLIZE but conveniently overlook his Public statements as meaningless and irrelevant !
As Trump said....."you are nasty person Ray"
As I have told you many times, I do not make decisions based on FIATH, let alone a Religious FAITH.
I am not religious as you well know. It's you who is in a cult.
I don't believe in "Gods", let alone "God's chosen Ones"'
I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth.
BTW, why do you ALWAYS address avoid answering my questions about your religious Faith, but instead choose to just attack my character?
Are you so insecure with your religion, that you can't answer simple questions about it?
Take care
Presented on British TV in 1954, starring Peter Cushing. First feature film version appeared in 1956, starring Edmond O'Brien. Saw that on the CBS afternoon movie (WBBM, channel 2, Chicago) as a 5-year-old. Quite an experience.
"They fear Love because it creates a World they can't control."-- George Orwell, 1984
From "The Killing Fields". "Onca say we must be like water buffalo. Work but do not think."
35-years of my dedication to building American Bridges, Ports, Roads, Docks, Sewage plants, Hospitals and Military facilities ~ adds up to me being considered "garbage" by the sitting Democratic President & Commander in Chief of the USA.
The Democrats can kiss my arse!
TRUMP/VANCE/RFK Jr/GABBARD 2024 ~ The ONLY vote for REAL Americans.
And dare anybody ask: What is a "REAL American"?
Somebody who served in the American military during a time of War?
If so, where's that leave and what does that make Corporal Bonespurs?
Given the fact that You can't vote ~ at least not legally ~, Biden's comments about "garbage" have nothing to do with You, Dennis.
Why can't I vote, Jeff?
You tell me. For starters, are You a Citizen of the United States?
Orwell's vision of 1984 was extremely prescient, only the timing was off.
Orwell might be the most quoted writer of our times. We can easily get lost in the dystopian nature of our times and not see hopeful signs-ways out. Genocide Joe has been doing something remarkably good and significant. His anti-trust initiatives frighten the likes of Musk, Bezos and Mark Cuban Bloomberg, Soros. During the last election before agreeing to support Biden, Bernie had Biden sign an agreement to go after monopolists. Biden lived up that that agreement. As Matt Stroller points out "“Before the Biden Administration, blocking a million-dollar deal in court would be a legacy- defining case for an FTC Chair or Anti-Trust Division Chief but for Lina Khan it’s just another Thursday.” Much of our way out of our dystopian times is breaking up grotesquely concentrated wealth. Bernie was sorry to see Biden step aside because he feared Kamala would be more like Bill Clinton and Obama and ignore anti-trust laws. We do not know if Kamala will end Bidens initiative. There is some hope for less dystopian times with Kamala. But we know for certain that Trump will not go after corrupt business deals, he is a corrupt business deal.
Cornel West in his idealism criticized Bernie for caving in and supporting Biden. But this was not the case. Bernie influenced Biden's domestic policies. It's a shame Bernie could not influence Biden's genocidal foreign policy.
It's a crying shame, no, it is deeply disturbing that the likes of Bernie could not influence Biden's genocidal foreign policy. Concentrated wealth-the Israel Lobby- arms manufactures profiting on Wall Street, the entire military industry- the grotesque misallocation of the nation's wealth and power in America has everything to do with what’s happening in Gaza and Lebanon. But Jeffery Sachs will tell you that John Kennedy tried to stand up to that concentrated wealth based on making war and was most likely shot for it. War needs enemies and taking of peace in not profitable.
Bill, you're not afraid of being vaporized?
I’m not as astute as Syme.
No, you are the Syme!
I call it totalitarianism in a velvet glove. Or is it with a poison pen?
I call it totalitarianism in a velvet glove. Or is it with a poison pen?
https://www.monbiot.com/2024/10/30/dont-do-it/
Moved by thoughts of Orwell's 1984, I registered and ran as an Independent Candidate for the Seat of Ottawa Centre in the Parliament of Canada in the Federal Election of 1984.
Having no money, organization or Volunteers, I didn't stand a chance, but it is entered into the Public record.
Even the campaign poster I distributed portended to the debate in this US Election 2024 these 2 Generations later.
https://rayjc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/ray-cop-poster1.jpg
Posting this TODAY, I just noticed for the 1st Time, the picture in the poster was published 13 Years earlier in 1977 by the Ottawa Citizen Newspaper.
There are 3 distinct 13s in the poster. 13 is my lucky number.
The date of the Election, December 13, 1984, the 13 year old picture in the poster, and the picture itself of me wearing my trademark #13 jersey.
One year ago Netanyahu invoked the Biblical reference with the Amalek rhetoric for a blatant call to genocide, "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." 1 Samuel 15:3.
And now one year later ~ NOT ONE GOD has lifted a finger to stop the genocide.
100,000 + slaughtered and their ox and sheep, camel and donkey. And their house, electricity, drinking water & sewage facilities and hospitals destroyed.
Because they had the audacity to pray to a different GOD!
I literally scream watching Al Jazeera TV watching these young kids with both legs amputated and dying a horrible death for lack of antibiotic medicine and proper food, and saying "GOD will save me!" Thinking of my beautiful young daughters at that age. Talk about hell!
The Christian faithful insist EVERYTHING happens according to God's PLAN.
But when SOMETHING tragic happens, the Christian says God gives us FREE WILL.
The age-old trick of constantly moving the goalposts. Total bullshit!
We are not buying this bullshit anymore Ray!
If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
If he is able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
If he is both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
If he is neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Christopher Hitchens was right ~ "RELIGION poisons everything!"
THERE IS NO GOD. Let alone an all-powerful, benevolent loving one. Its bullshit!
And you have the balls, Ray, to continue to flood this site with your Biblical religious nonsense comments singing the praise of an imaginary GOD ~ not matter the subject. GMAFB
You have disqualified yourself from anybody giving a shit about what you did in 1984.
When I listen to Carl Sagan its more "inspiring" than any "Sermon" I've ever heard in any Church!!! We are the Universe staring back at itself in Wonder...Profound enough for me.
I can't take it as well Dennis. Religious Freaks... Why does there have to be a point!? There isn't a point or purpose to our existence, over 3.8 billion years of evolution the fact that we exist at all is worth "celebrating." Find your own purpose if you must . Down in the deep primordial oceans we emerged from single cell organisms, and before that probably chemical reactions reactions from hydro-thermal vents in the deep primordial oceans of ancient Earth ocean beds. Now we can have conversations where we can sit and think among the Stars, talk about the Stars and have conversations like this...! Now can't we just leave it at this??? Isn't that enough!!!???
Great Question, Fireman1110.
But all those levels Humans had to go thru once we arrived on the scene to get to being able to sit, think, and Chat among the Stars weren't enough at that time, either.
I like to think the publivk at large isore educated than in Orwellian times and as such are capably of assessing the news of the day with a skektical eye. At least those that can escape the MSM box of deception.
Biden calls MAGA hats "garbage".
What duties under the 25th Amendment were shirked? By whom?
Who is serving “we the people”?
Actually, he called 120-million American people "garbage".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xaFXpot8lk&t=22s
TRUMP/VANCE 2024 VANCE/GABBARD 2028 The thinking person's vote.