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Be careful, Rachel… . Somebody might end up calling You a “9/11 Truther.”
And see my comment above to Bill about “rabbit holes” and “Gateways and Portals to TRUTH.”
Also, if You haven’t discovered them already via the International Center for 9/11 Justice website, take a look at Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth at ae911truth.org . S…
Be careful, Rachel… . Somebody might end up calling You a “9/11 Truther.”
And see my comment above to Bill about “rabbit holes” and “Gateways and Portals to TRUTH.”
Also, if You haven’t discovered them already via the International Center for 9/11 Justice website, take a look at Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth at https://www.ae911truth.org/ . Since 2007, AE9/114T has been at the forefront of the effort to actually explain the destruction of World Trade Center Towers 1,2, and particularly, 7; and to expose the LIE that the “Official” conspiracy theory about those demolitions was, is, and ever will be.
As those Latin American Liberation Theologians wiped out by Bush I and Bozo’s Ollie North Crusade put it: “For there to be Peace, there must be Justice. And for there to be Justice, there must be ~ before anything else ~ TRUTH.”
Jeff, I think biggest thing the US people cannot accept is: 9/11 was a response, revenge, or justice if you like, by people who were tired of Israel and the US phucking with them! They had been provoked enough by the great Satan US military presence in their religious homelands. The Yanks bought it on themselves.
And I don't think it was a "raghead in a cave". I think it was bunch of clever, determined religious zealots who got their shit together, and pulled off a brilliant masterful job.
Against the complete failure of a hopeless US military and inept security agencies to protect the nation. That the planes were not intercepted and shot down, or better yet, the plot discovered and foiled before it happened, is a very sad reflection on US capabilities to even protect its own homeland. Too "busy" phucking with people in faraway lands. Looking for the enemy in all the wrong places.
These guys achieved 1,000 times more than they could ever have dreamed of. They started the final collapse of the US in one day, using box cutters and a few measly dollars
As I have told you before, I don't believe the cobbled up fake story that we were told. But I think that to proffer that it was an "inside job", a false flag, is a non-starter. That would have involved thousands. And it would only take one person to spill the beans to make the big bucks. This is the fatal flaw in the "inside job" narrative. And remember, we are talking about a Federal government who could not organize a "booze up in a brewery".
NORAD info. I like this site because there's a bunch of links validating what is said.
https://timelineofterror.org/timelines/norad/
As for the numbers involved. You're reminding me of That Certain Group of people who called us Russian agents or Republicans for arguing against the Ukraine war.
One of those people said to me, "Now how could this all be propaganda? You're telling me the reporter is told what to write? You're telling me that all these people are in on some big conspiracy and nobody talks?"
I know there's a LOT of 9/11 info out there. Some good, some bad. Some no doubt planted by our own Intel services. You definitely would want to look at more reputable sites. But the evidence is overwhelming. The FBI tried multiple times to thwart it and were stymied by the CIA. There's a pretty well known FBI whistleblower who has spoken openly on it.
I do not believe a thousand people were in on it. I don't know how many people, but I think it would be similar to other (mirror) situations where the government knows an attack is about to happen and then very publicly thwarts it. Then later you're left wondering how much the government was involved initiating it in the first place. I don't know how much of the story is fake. I do think Muslims were misled into thinking they were participating in the attack. But as for the fine details, I would need years to research it!
Interestingly to your comment, I hadn't thought about 9/11 for years. Then about 6 months ago I was listening to an interview of an American who lived in Tunisia and joined a rebel group. Kinda like a hippie with a gun was my takeaway. Anyways, this is just one guy, but what he said made me interested again in the topic. He said that in Tunisia, people didn't believe Al Qaeda did it, and Al Qaeda was having P.R. issues because Arabs literally didn't believe Al Qaeda was involved!
Isn't that nuts?! Who knows what to believe. I enjoy this space where free thought is permitted!
And finally, Dennis: If You don't believe the "cobbled up fake story" put out by the government and its media, what is Your story about 9/11?
I don't have a story. There are lots of things I don't know. And, like who created the Universe, I am OK with saying I don't know. I don't need to invent a fanciful story.
You on the other hand start off with your conclusion - the gubmint is evil and did it. And then try to invent evidence that your story is right. The very opposite of the scientific method!
Hey, if the buildings were demo'd by explosives on the day the two planes hit the twin towers - then those that planted the explosives must have known the exact day that 9/11 was going to occur. So they would be able to spend the three months in advance planting the explosives! So that they would be ready to push the plunger.
Does that make sense?
Oh, I see - they also flew the planes into the buildings. 18-US gubmint ringers, who were Arabs and were willing to commit suicide to stage a false flag. I see?
Was it just a coincidence that they were the only non-US citizens and the only passengers with Arabic names on their flights? I dunno.
None of it makes sense to me Jeff. What happened at the Pentagon? We know it was not a plane eh? Who took weeks to plant bombs at the high security Pentagon? The plane that crashed in Pennsylvania? WTF?
And if the US had not made so any enemies in the world - would this still have happened?
And like Bill says - that's not a rabbit hole I choose to go down. If we prove it was the gubmint - what's to be done now? Buy more guns to defend ourselves from the tyrannical gubmint!
Take care my good man.
Do Yourself a big, big favor, Dennis, and do not presume to lecture me ~ or, particularly, the folks at Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth ~ on the scientific method.
They [like me] did not start with a “conclusion” and then “invented evidence” to prove that that conclusion was right.
They started with all the Questions that were either asked but left unanswered and/or were not even asked by the government [the 9/11 Commission, FEMA, and NIST] about what actually happened on 9/11. Particularly as regards the destruction of the three WTC Towers.
In other words, they [like me] started with what is called an “hypothesis”: “[A] proposed explanation for a phenomenon. For a hypothesis to be a scientific hypothesis, the scientific method requires that one can test it. Scientists generally base scientific hypotheses on previous observations that cannot satisfactorily be explained with the available scientific theories. Even though the words ‘hypothesis’ and ‘theory’ are often used interchangeably, a scientific hypothesis is not the same as a scientific theory. A working hypothesis is a provisionally accepted hypothesis proposed for further research in a process beginning with an educated guess or thought.” [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis ]
If You watch the movie SEVEN, You will see a very detailed explanation as to how that Structural Engineering Study of the destruction of WTC 7 was conceived, organized, and executed, all completely within accepted standards of the scientific method and engineering research, with hypotheses to deal with all those unanswered and unasked questions.
And what is so puzzling about a military operation that has a date of planned execution that allows sufficient time for all the necessary activity that needs to happen before that operation is launched, if it is to have any chance of success? If the ultimate objective was to bring those Towers down, time would have to be spent prepping those Towers for their destruction, which were originally designed and built to take and survive intact the impact of a Boeing 707, according to the architect who designed them.
And exactly how do “we know” that it wasn’t a plane that hit the Pentagon? Plus, the damage done to the Pentagon was the obvious result of something crashing into it; and not the result of “bombs previously planted” inside that “high security’ building. After the explosion from whatever hit the Pentagon, nothing was blown outward away from the building as if that explosion were caused by explosives inside the building. All the damage was directed inwards.
And finally, if You accept the “Official” conspiracy theory about 9/11 as put out by the 9/11 Commission, FEMA, NIST, and the Media, You have already gone down the Rabbit Hole they intended for You to go down. Just like the overwhelming majority of Americans who have much more pressing issues to confront and deal with than what War their government is going to get into next.
Jeff my friend, you are right. I have already gone down the rabbit hole "they" intended for me to go down. And the "movies" you watch are the real truth! LOL
BTW I attended a Structural Engineering Institute (SEI) of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) presentation in Seattle on the 9/11 building collapse. By Leslie Earl Robertson*, of the Seattle Structural engineering firm Worthington, Skilling, Helle & Jackson. He was the lead structural engineer of the Twin Towers design. He and his colleagues developed the framed-tube structural system that was used in the towers. He made no bones about it that he thought the folks at the "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" were a bunch of wack jobs. And that the movie SEVEN was not to be taken seriously.
Unlike you, I have no axe to grind here. And have actually been involved in building design. Working on loan for 4-years to our sister company design firm, ABAM Engineers in Federal Way WA. Know a little bit about the design process! LOL
Now go find somebody else to fight with. You are wearing me out and confusing me with someone who wants to fight to the death about what happened on 9/11.
All I know is the Americans fucked themselves before, during and after that fateful day.
Have a great day.
*He received The Mayors Award for Excellence in Science and Technology for the design of the World Trade Center. In recognition of his design withstanding the impact of the planes with enough time to allow many thousands of occupants to evacuate safely.
That's very interesting, Dennis, that You attended a presentation by Mr Robertson, and that he said that "the movie SEVEN was not to be taken seriously."
i'm curious: When did You leave the US to return to New Zealand? Were You still living in Seattle when You heard Robertson? Or did You travel all the way from New Zealand to attend his presentation in Seattle in 2020?
You must have if ~ as You claim ~ You actually heard him say that for the simple reason that SEVEN was released in 2020, after the study at the University of Alaska Fairbanks on the destruction of WTC 7 was completed.
Jeff, if you don't believe I attended a presentation by Leslie Robertson on the twin towers collapse I guess there is nothing I can do about that.
And yes, I was careless in my post in implying that he also commented on SEVEN at the presentation I went to. My posts in the middle of the night lacking in accuracy! LOL. My old memory is not what it was eh. I went to many seminars - don't remember the dates of any of them now.
But I have close personal friends and colleagues who also are Structural Engineers and regularly attend seminars in Seattle. Some of whom were friends with Leslie before he passed away. In our regular email correspondence over the years, talking shop, we have discussed our mutual interest in this subject. It's through them I am aware of our colleague Mr. Roberston's feelings about the movie.
Have you read this article? Seems as if there are some serious problems with the University of Alaska Fairbanks study. Like any complex problem, especially with engineers (LOL), there is always disagreement with the conclusions,
https://12bytes.org/articles/exposed/possible-problems-with-the-uaf-wtc-7-collapse-study/
"The UAF study seems to have some serious problems, particularly with regard to the extent of the fires and the floors on which fires were located and therefore this evidence was ignored. This is not science!
The most obvious challenge to the demolition theory is the question of how possibly hundreds of explosive charges and detonators, along with their wiring, could have withstood an extensive eight hour fire and remain intact until someone decided to push the big red button, but nevertheless I cannot discount it with any authority."
The problem Jeff is that "The Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth", headed by ARCHITECT Richard Gage, have made STRUCTURAL ENGINEERING blunders that have seriously jeopardize their credibility.
But Jeff, I'm done with this. I don't have the desire or energy to pursue this subject anymore. And after all, have you not hijacked a blog on War and Militarism Thrive in America to push your confirmation bias on the subject.
Take care.
All i asked was when You left Seattle, Dennis.
And it's interesting that there is nothing online anywhere that has Mr Robertson expressing his feeling about the movie. Maybe Your friends and colleagues can cite any specific statements that he made about it.
But i doubt it.
Jeff, Leslie Roberston, an astute professional of some standing in his field, was not in the habit of flippantly expressing his feelings about a movie to outsiders of his profession. Especially such a hot potatoe as this. And especially on the internet, which even in his time was already a bit of a minefield. Discussing it with his equals over a few drinks at the presentation dinner maybe eh.
Take care.
Roger that, Dennis. Out.
Dennis, You wrote: “That the planes were not intercepted and shot down, or better yet, the plot discovered and foiled before it happened, is a very sad reflection on US capabilities to even protect its own homeland. Too "busy" phucking with people in faraway lands. Looking for the enemy in all the wrong places.”
That those planes were not intercepted and, if necessary, shot down had absolutely nothing to do with the US Air Force being too busy fucking with people in faraway lands. NORAD was at full operational strength and capability on 9/11, as it always has been since its creation.
“It is standard operating procedure (SOP) to scramble jet fighters whenever a jetliner goes off course or radio contact with it is lost. Between September 2000 and June 2001, interceptors were scrambled 67 times. In the year 2000 jets were scrambled 129 times.
“There are several elements involved in domestic air defense. The air traffic control system continuously monitors air traffic and notifies NORAD of any deviations of any aircraft from their flight-paths or loss of radio contact. NORAD monitors air and space traffic continuously and is prepared to react immediately to threats and emergencies. It has the authority to order units from the Air National Guard, the Air Force, or other armed services to scramble fighters in pursuit of jetliners in trouble.
“ROUTINE INTERCEPTION PROCEDURES WERE NOT FOLLOWED ON SEPTEMBER 11TH, 2001.
Source: “NORAD Stand-Down: The Prevention of Interceptions of the Commandeered Planes” at https://www.911research.wtc7.net/planes/analysis/norad/index.html .
As I said the Air National Guard, the Air Force and NORAD phucked up big time!
Didn't these F-16's take of when it was too late in any case? Too late, even if they had received authority?
And if they had taken off in time, and intercepted and got no instructions and authority, are you are telling me these expert fighter pilots just shadowed these off-course airliners obviously heading to WA DC - and stood by and let them do what was becoming obvious anyway?
Excuse my French Jeff - but a major cock up by EVERYBODY!
So do You think that those jets stayed on the ground because the pilots didn't want to fly, or that their commanders didn't want them fly?
Or were those commanders and their jets and pilots ORDERED to stay on the ground by some Higher Headquarter?
And how high of a Higher Headquarter did it need to be to order their subordinate commanders to violate those "routine interception procedures"?
In short, Who was NORAD getting, taking, and following its orders from to stay on the ground?
You tell me!
Like i said: The answer to that question, Dennis, will begin to unlock the Whole, Real, Actual TRUTH about 9/11.
We aren't sure who created the Universe - therefore it must be the TRUTH that "God" did it!
We aren't sure about how the 9/11 buildings collapsed - therefore it has to be the TRUTH that it was the "gubmint" who done it!
LOL
As a very Wise Woman once put it: "If it looks like a Duck, walks like a Duck, quacks like a Duck, and shits like a Duck, the chances are very good that it is, in fact, a Duck."
Substitute "Planned Demolition" for "Duck," Dennis, and see where that leads You.
Translation:
If it came down at free fall speed, like WTC 7 did, it is a Planned Demolition.
It if fell completely symmetrically, like WTC 7 did, it is a Planned Demolition.
If it ended up neatly piled up on its own footprint, like WTC did, it is a Planned Demolition.
And as a wiser Woman once put it: "If people say it looks like a Liar, walks like a Liar, quacks like a Liar, and shits like a Liar, there are also chances that they are, in fact, not a Liar."
Nelson Mandela, John Paul Vann, Mordechai Vanunu, Frank Snepp, Karen Kwiatkowski, Frederic Whitehurst, Samuel Provance, George Galloway, Chelsea Maning, John Kiriakou, Edward Snowden and Julian Assange sitting in a UK dungeon are testament to that Jeff
Sorry, Dennis: What is Your point?
That all those people were and are liars? Or that governments and the politicians that operate them are liars?
Now THAT is some fine reasoning, Dennis. T-HGF.
And that "failure to follow routine interception procedures" had absolutely NOTHING to do with America's foreign policy in foreign lands. Particularly that policy in Arab/Muslim lands.
From the 9/11 Research article cited above:
"The air defense network had, on September 11th, predictable and effective procedures for dealing with just such an attack. Yet it failed to respond in a timely manner until after the attack was over, more than an hour and a half after it had started. The official timeline describes a series of events and mode of response in which the delays are spread out into a number of areas. There are failures upon failures, in what might be described as A STRATEGY OF LAYERED FAILURES, OR FAILURE IN DEPTH. The failures can be divided into four types. [EMPHASIS added.]
"~ 1. Failures to report: Based on the official timeline, the FAA response times for reporting the deviating aircraft were many times longer than the prescribed times.
"~ 2; Failures to scramble: NORAD, once notified of the off-course aircraft, failed to scramble jets from the nearest bases.
"~ 3. Failures to intercept: Once airborne, interceptors failed to reach their targets because they flew at small fractions of their top speeds and/or in the wrong directions.
"~ 4. Failures to redeploy: Fighters that were airborne and within interception range of the deviating aircraft were not redeployed to pursue them.
"Had not there been multiple failures of each type, one or more parts of the attack could have been thwarted. NORAD had time to protect the World Trade Center even given the unbelievably late time, 8:40, when it claims to have first been notified. It had time to protect the South Tower and Washington even given its bizarre choice of bases from which to scramble planes. And it still had ample opportunity to protect both New York City and Washington even if it insisted that all interceptors fly subsonic, simply by redeploying airborne fighters."
See my comment above. If you are telling me that FAA, NORAD, and the fighter pilots were instructed to not follow standard procedures in a timely manner - by whom?
The answer to that question, Dennis, will begin to unlock the Whole, Real, Actual TRUTH about 9/11.
Multiple people told the pilots to fly in the wrong direction, making them late. There is testimony of the pilots. I'm pretty sure of people in flight control also.
But then I think, a few years later, they (the empire) changed the story and said no jets were scrambled. Probably because it was harder to sell the lie that the jets weren't scrambled in time, when they were indeed very much on time and military people knew that!
If this is the one hook that gets you, look it up! Not to say there's not a million more questions after this one, just saying it's a pretty exciting mystery.
Tell You what, Dennis: Let’s keep this simple and straight forward by starting with the destruction of WTC 7, the 47-story building not hit by planes or significant debris that came down almost 7 hours after WTC Towers 1 and 2 came down. Which made it the first steel-frame high rise structure in history to come down “because of fire.” Or so the “Official” conspiracy theory informs us.
i invite You to watch the movie SEVEN, which details a four-year Structural Engineering Study of the collapse of WTC 7, and its finding that FIRES DID NOT BRING THAT BUILDING DOWN, as we were and still are assured by FEMA, NIST, and the media that it was.
And the inescapable conclusion from that study was that A PLANNED DEMOLITION DID. For more information and how to watch SEVEN, go to https://www.ae911truth.org/seven . The official trailer is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7peCaqUQt8 .
And so, Dennis, the obvious question is: Did those “determined religious zealot terrorists” wire that building for its destruction? And given that WTC 1 and 2 were “destroyed by waves of explosions that pulverized the building contents and hurled steel beams up to 600 ft in all directions,” another obvious question is: Did they wire those buildings, as well?
If those determined religious zealot terrorists on those airplanes achieved 1,000 times more than they could have ever dreamed of, it is only because they had a lot of demolition engineering support on the ground. [The Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth website has very detailed science-, architecture-, and engineering-based information on the destruction of WTC 7 and the Twin Towers, as well.]
And after You do that and are still interested, we can explore whether or not calling 9/11 an inside false flag job is a non-starter. Have a Great day. ~ jeff
Jeff, have you ever been involved in demolition of large steel and concrete structures? I have. Several. Including the entire demo of the Long Beach Naval Station Shipyard and Drydock - to build a container shipping terminal.
I also watched our demolition subcontractor (the California big boys) demo the huge piers and steel columns of the old San Fran to Oakland bridge.
It takes months of preparation. Drilling holes with huge noisy smelly diesel compressors for the drills. Putting in all the charges, and wiring and setting the fuses with forklifts. Masses of equipment. Many truckload deliveries of demo supplies. Even installing small shape charges on steel beams was impossible to hide.
No way this could have been done on WTC 7 and the Twin Towers without anybody noticing!
You mean all this required engineering was done in the demolition subs office in secret? And nobody said a word? All this stuff and equipment was then dragged up in the elevators at night? LOL. Even installing small shape charges on the steel beams would have involved removing, and reinstalling new replacement, interior gladding on the beams, wall panels, ceiling panels and carpet - and not escaped notice. And taking months!
And no office worker ever said "Jeez, what happened here in my office last night? What's all this debris and dust? Who moved all my pot plants?"
It does not pass the laugh test. Its bovine excrement. Lunatics fantasies.
What's your acronym? GTFOMF!
BTW, in my career I met tons of dumb ivory tower office Engineers and Architects who would not know what end of a hammer to hold! Those are the idiots who are the clowns in that Engineers and Architects for Truth mob! The structural engineering firm, Worthington, Skilling, Helle & Jackson in Seattle, who designed the framed-tube structural system used in the Twin Towers, wants nothing to do with those clowns and their "conclusions".
Have You ever seen a steel frame skyscraper brought down by a controlled demolition?
Watch this video of several controlled demolitions of high-rise buildings [,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeNUMI3UQRo ], and then compare it to the videos of the demolition of WTC 7 in the movie. And then tell me if You detect any significant difference in them regarding: the speed with which they free fell; the totally symmetrical nature of that fall; and how they all ended up piled up quite neatly on their own footprint.
And finally, where the beams were that had to be wired for demolition were nowhere near any office spaces that any office worker might notice debris and dust.
Watch the movie and read the research and reports from Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Dennis, and then we'll continue the conversation.
And i'm not familiar with GTFOMF! Is that "Get The Fuck Off My Foot"?
"My" acronym is GMAFB, as in "Give Me A Fucking Break."
I suppose reading all that nonsense from those dumb phuck Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth is better than reading Superman comics. Not by much though eh! Take care Jeff - have a nice day basking in your delusions.
And of course, you still have not answered my question? Why has nobody squealed? Not one person involved has been short of a few million bucks from a book publisher to tell the truth eh? Not even a poor laborer setting all those fuses and is now broke!
And the gubmint can't pay off everybody Jeff. Or kill them!
GMAFB!
And You do the same with Yours, Dennis.
And enjoy Your comic books.
Why has nobody squealed?
My guess is that everybody involved in that project who could provide irrefutable Proof of their allegations ~ from the President of the United States down to that lowly paid and now broke fuse installer ~ had things of much higher value and importance to them than a mere "few million bucks" from some publisher.
How many people were involved in the conceptualization, research, building, and testing of the atomic bomb? How come nobody squealed about that until after it was used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
And on what basis do You assume that the gubmint CAN'T pay off everybody it needs to accomplish an objective, or kill them?
But you are saying that 100% had things of much higher value and importance to them than a mere "few million bucks" from some publisher. The odds for that are zero.
Nothing is 100% Jeff. It only takes one.
And which credible, major publishers that wanted to stay in business by staying on the good side of the government and its media would give a couple million bucks for that "An Insider's No Shit True Story About 9/11"? And how would they go about confirming the validity of that scoop?
And was keeping the atom bomb a secret 100% successful? At least until they were actually used?